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Author Topic: gain structure for electronic drums, keyboards, and other variable output things  (Read 6040 times)

lindsay Dean

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     Agreed, the key board player should in his or her private practice time run through the sounds being used and level them out.
 but unfortunately most don't.
 in those cases a limiter is needed and effective, if used properly its a great tool.
     ive seen compression portrayed as a bad thing , not so if you know how to set it up :)
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Tim McCulloch

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     Agreed, the key board player should in his or her private practice time run through the sounds being used and level them out.
 but unfortunately most don't.
 in those cases a limiter is needed and effective, if used properly its a great tool.
     ive seen compression portrayed as a bad thing , not so if you know how to set it up :)

I'd rather have the compression available than not.

It just amazes me that people who call themselves musicians seem unaware of these extreme differences or are incapable of adjusting or controlling their instruments to minimize those differences.
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Steve Loewenthal

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So here is a summary of what I think I can take from this thread.
1: Try to make the source signal as high as possible and the channel trim low. (But not so low that I have no headroom to turn it down a little more.)
2: Beware of distortion on the input as they turn up their source. Because I have no electronic indicator to know where it starts I have to use my ears. (Don't really trust that. I wish there was an electronic device that could detect clipping before it reaches the console.)
3: When mixing for the potentially untrained, always keep a compressor patch configured just in case.
4: Every instrument is potentially different so I never know what might come out of it.

One thing I'd like clarification on from TJ's reply. As a general statement, other factors not necessarily coming in to play, do you still think it preferable to let the source be turned up to where I have to use the pad on the DI, vs keeping the source lower to where the pad is not needed?

Oh, and I'm sure there is a #5: It depends. :)
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Steve Loewenthal

"I'm, just the guy in a band that owns the PA and I'm trying to figure out how it works. (Been trying to learn somethin' about it for about 20 years and I hope somethin' learns me soon)"

Chris Grimshaw

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Wow - I hope they deserved it.  You have removed ALL dynamics and attack/sustain above the threshold, which you presumably set at their quietest patch.

I don't know you or this situation, but since many posts are read out of context, I will say that this is only acceptable in dire situations with belligerent musicians.  If I found out someone did this to me instead of giving me some feedback that something wasn't working in the house and a chance to fix it, that would be the last gig they would do for me.

I realize there is a large continuum of "garbage in" that we try to make less garbagey when coming out, but mixing boards have faders for a reason, and the temptation to substitute extreme compression for active mixing is not acceptable.  The disdain some sound folks have for the people on stage and subsequent punishment in the mix does not make a good working relationship, and degrades our craft.

When I've got the vocal harmonies sitting juuuust right, and then the keyboardist changes patch and has a 10dB level increase which effectively ruins the mix and might well put the PA hard into the limiters, I'm going to apply a compressor. I set it so it was just-about-ever-so-slightly nudging the red when they played hard on a "normal" patch. ie, I left them as much dynamic range as I could.

As Dave said, it's not about killing their playing dynamics. It's about knocking down those one or two wild patches that would spoil the show.


Steve, with regards to the DI pad, I wouldn't bother turning it up to a point where the pad is needed, unless you suspect the player might mess with the output level after it's been set.

Chris
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Roland Clarke

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I remember working with a very good band, the key player was using a Nord "loaner", as he had to come by train.  Unfortunately the patches were all over the place, about 20db out from best to worse.  I spent all the gig chasing up and down the channel, he was a very good player, but this is an example of what can happen and (although rare) does.  I've also had the same experience with "older" good players who just aren't tech savvy.  Of course a compressor helps, I just don't think that shoving a compressor at 10:1 or above at a low threshold is the best solution.  I don't like the chasing around the desk, but sometimes it's the best solution.  I always remember that doing sound for artists makes us facilitators and I always endeavour to do my best even if the band isn't helping.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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One thing I'd like clarification on from TJ's reply. As a general statement, other factors not necessarily coming in to play, do you still think it preferable to let the source be turned up to where I have to use the pad on the DI, vs keeping the source lower to where the pad is not needed?

Oh, and I'm sure there is a #5: It depends. :)
Steve, the reason to have the instrument turned most or all of the way up is to prevent a surprise level jump if the user turns the knob up unexpectedly.  There's no reason not to use the pad on the DI.

Keyboards and other electronic sources have the equivalent of a 600HP engine on their outputs.  While instruments with passive pickups may be affected by the load a DI places on the instrument due to a very weak output signal, this is not the case with electronic instruments.  Short of a cable fault, you're not going to negatively affect the sound of the keyboard/drum kit/whatever unless you clip your mixer preamp.

RE your comment about using your ears to detect distortion, other than the clip light on your mixer, your ears are all you need.  If you can't hear any problem, then there almost certainly isn't one.  Once again, other than weirdo circuit-bent toy keyboard things that are supposed to be tweaky, I've never experienced any problem with distortion coming out of a keyboard or other electronic instrument related to that instrument's main volume control.  I wouldn't worry about it.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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I remember working with a very good band, the key player was using a Nord "loaner", as he had to come by train.  Unfortunately the patches were all over the place, about 20db out from best to worse.  I spent all the gig chasing up and down the channel, he was a very good player, but this is an example of what can happen and (although rare) does.  I've also had the same experience with "older" good players who just aren't tech savvy.  Of course a compressor helps, I just don't think that shoving a compressor at 10:1 or above at a low threshold is the best solution.  I don't like the chasing around the desk, but sometimes it's the best solution.  I always remember that doing sound for artists makes us facilitators and I always endeavour to do my best even if the band isn't helping.
I think some of our discussion reflects trying to project our experiences more broadly than is true.  I have played keys semi-professionally for a couple decades now, and if some punk sound guy presumes I am going to send him garbage such that he puts a brick wall limiter on my channel right above whatever level he feels is normal, we are going to have words. On the converse, maybe some others only work with ultra-amateur keys people and sucking is the norm. 

While I think 10:1 fast attack/release compression is absurd even for fairly extreme level issues, my point is that it's better to give people a chance to send good stuff without presuming they suck with a preemptive limiter, and offer feedback so in the future they can send better data.
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Chris Grimshaw

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I think some of our discussion reflects trying to project our experiences more broadly than is true.  I have played keys semi-professionally for a couple decades now, and if some punk sound guy presumes I am going to send him garbage such that he puts a brick wall limiter on my channel right above whatever level he feels is normal, we are going to have words. On the converse, maybe some others only work with ultra-amateur keys people and sucking is the norm. 

While I think 10:1 fast attack/release compression is absurd even for fairly extreme level issues, my point is that it's better to give people a chance to send good stuff without presuming they suck with a preemptive limiter, and offer feedback so in the future they can send better data.

Hey, I never said to set it by default.
Most of the time, it's fine. If I notice the keys jumping around a little, that's fair enough - almost certainly down to the player playing with dynamics, which I'm all for.
If the keys change patch mid-song and jump up by +10dB and completely overpower everything, I'm going to do something to keep it in-line. I know it ain't pretty, and I don't particularly like doing it, but if it needs doing, it needs doing. As someone said - last resort blast management.

I work with a variety of keys players. They're usually good at playing the keys themselves, but the technical stuff can be hit-and-miss.

Chris
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Callan Browne

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I'd be surprised others in this band don't tell the keys player to sort their patches out. If any of them had keys on their monitor, it would be a nightmare for them as well as the foh sound - one minute your mix is right, then the next there is nothing but keyboards. (*Points to wedge... Can I have more vocal?)

I use a guitar modeller (fractal) and make sure all my patches are at a relativity similar level, so I'm not jumping all over the place. I do change patches mid song and wouldn't stand for an accidental volume jump.
how hard can it be to level everything out?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

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Tim McCulloch

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^^^ This.
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"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

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