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[Caleb Dueck]

The DBH subs, being folded rather than tapped horns, sound best when in multiples.  That, along with the phase incoherence of mixing subs, is why I would go with 3x DBH subs.  Yes they are loud, I've used 4x in that size room, but EDM is very demanding and it's better to have extra headroom than not enough headroom (squashed transients, shorter lifespan). 

I've used 1, 2, and 4 DBH subs at a time, and 4 or more is where they start to smooth out and extend a bit lower in response.

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[Ash Priba]

The DBH subs, being folded rather than tapped horns, sound best when in multiples.  That, along with the phase incoherence of mixing subs, is why I would go with 3x DBH subs.  EDM is very demanding and it's better to have extra headroom than not enough headroom (squashed transients, shorter lifespan).

Thank you Caleb that is very useful information.

Last question.  We plan to spread 6 x THSPUD around the room. However I believe with 3 x DBH218 this may not be necessary.

What are your opinions. See attached image.

[Ivan Beaver]

Last question.  We plan to spread 6 x THSPUD around the room. However I believe with 3 x DBH218 this may not be necessary.

What are your opinions. See attached image.

I would say this is not really a good idea.

Yes it might could work, and I assume the idea is to get a little extra "rumble" under the seats.

The Th SPUD works great for that-in a HOME HT setup.

But when you start to spread subs around the room, you start to introduce all sorts of new arrival times.  If you try to delay the SPUDS to the main arrivals, each local area would be correct, but they would introduce late arrivals to other places that have different arrival times.

I "think", but have never tried it, you would end up with a lot of localized deep bass, but could possibly kill some of the impact of the DBH218s.

The SPUDS are not real loud in a larger space, but when they are spread around, it might be an issue.

The SPUD is also not a high power/output device, and intended for "local sub bubbles".

And your basic idea is correct in that way.  But it is intended to be a single bubble (or use 2 units together for a larger platform).

Personally, I would start with just the DBH218s and see what sort of performance you get.  Then possibly add the  SPUDS later.

If you do go with the SPUDS,  BE SURE to properly limit them and don't try to get "dance club levels" out of the SPUDS alone. 

[David Sturzenbecher]

Here are some thoughts.


However the Th118 goes a bit lower and is a little "smoother" sounding.  The DBH218 "hits harder"/punchier.

Is the DBH218 still available in the -LC version? Maybe then it will play as low as (or lower than) a TH118 with the punch?


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[Ash Priba]

Is the DBH218 still available in the -LC version? Maybe then it will play as low as (or lower than) a TH118 with the punch?

David, that's a good idea.

Taking the idea one step further, how about combining 1 x DBH218LC in the center flanked by 2 x DBH218 on the sides (or vice versa?).

I would get the extra low extension of the LC coupled with the punch of the regular DBH.

Thank you.

[Ivan Beaver]

Is the DBH218 still available in the -LC version? Maybe then it will play as low as (or lower than) a TH118 with the punch?


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I would assume it is still available.

Yes the LC version does go lower than the standard version.  But it is a longer cabinet with a longer internal delay (to get the lower freq response)

Sonically, it does not have as much "punch" as the standard version.  So in a side by side, using "normal rock" material, the regular cabinet is louder and sounds better.

But when the application requires lower response, that is where the LC version starts to shine.

If using both together, the extra path delay needs to be accounted for.

And considering that while it freq response goes lower, the output at those lower freq is not as loud as the higher freq.  So it takes more of them to equal the same output.

In the dance market, I know some people want the deep notes to "sound" as loud as the higher ones, so it takes a lot GREATER output (not the same SPL level) in order for them to "sound" the same SPL.

Other people just want the lower notes to "be there", and they don't care if they are not quite as loud.

So-as usual-it depends.

[Josh Ricci]

Last question.  We plan to spread 6 x THSPUD around the room. However I believe with 3 x DBH218 this may not be necessary.

What are your opinions. See attached image.

Ivan brings up many valid points about trying to use the THSpud's locally at each couch/ seating area. This will likely cause weird smearing or phasing of the bass response at or around the seated listening positions on the second floor when combined with the main output from the stage.

Have you thought about using a tactile transducer mounted into the furniture instead? Something like a Crowson or Buttkicker? These can provide an enhanced feel to the bass to anyone seated in those areas, without producing sound energy that may complicate or interfere with the output from the main subs. They can be an effective tool at times.

[Ash Priba]

But when the application requires lower response, that is where the LC version starts to shine.

And considering that while it freq response goes lower, the output at those lower freq is not as loud as the higher freq.  So it takes more of them to equal the same output.

In the dance market, I know some people want the deep notes to "sound" as loud as the higher ones, so it takes a lot GREATER output (not the same SPL level) in order for them to "sound" the same SPL. Other people just want the lower notes to "be there", and they don't care if they are not quite as loud.

Thank you Ivan. It clarifies a lot of things. We have the physical space for the 218LC.

Q: Mixing 2 x 218 and 1 x 218LC will not be detrimental to SQ?  It is akin to arraying 2 different kinds of subs which Caleb mentioned will be an issue.

---

Thus we will essentially have a 5-way system with the SH50 high passed at 100hz and either:

Opt A. 2 x 218 from say 40-100hz and 1 x 218LC from 20-40hz OR

Opt B. Since punch requires less power to obtain, perhaps 2 x 218LC from 15/20-40hz and 1 x 218 from 40-100hz?

This will be more of a lounge (mature audience, 30+) rather than a hardcore EDM club. We will have a mix of live bands and EDM, depending on the whims of the audience.

---

Noted re the THSpud. Thank you for the buttkicker idea. I am not familiar with it but I can imagine what its intentions are . I will look into it.

[Nathan Riddle]

Thank you Ivan. It clarifies a lot of things. We have the physical space for the 218LC.

Q: Mixing 2 x 218 and 1 x 218LC will not be detrimental to SQ?  It is akin to arraying 2 different kinds of subs which Caleb mentioned will be an issue.

---

Thus we will essentially have a 5-way system with the SH50 high passed at 100hz and either:

Opt A. 2 x 218 from say 40-100hz and 1 x 218LC from 20-40hz OR

Opt B. Since punch requires less power to obtain, perhaps 2 x 218LC from 15/20-40hz and 1 x 218 from 40-100hz?

This will be more of a lounge (mature audience, 30+) rather than a hardcore EDM club. We will have a mix of live bands and EDM, depending on the whims of the audience.

---

Noted re the THSpud. Thank you for the buttkicker idea. I am not familiar with it but I can imagine what its intentions are . I will look into it.

I'll let the other more knowledgeable guys correct me & weigh in.

But I think you're thinking about this the wrong way.


If
A) you want deep lows that are of equal perceived* volume
Then
It would be better to have 3x of the LC version and correct via DSP the perceived volume differences (lower everything 30Hz+)

B) you want deep lows that are 'there' but not necessarily loud
Then
it would be better to have 3x of the normal version and whatever you get from the normal version in the lows before limiting is what you get.


At this point though, no matter what sub you get; you're going to be happy. *I'm jealous*

[Ivan Beaver]

Thank you Ivan. It clarifies a lot of things. We have the physical space for the 218LC.

Q: Mixing 2 x 218 and 1 x 218LC will not be detrimental to SQ?  It is akin to arraying 2 different kinds of subs which Caleb mentioned will be an issue.

---

Thus we will essentially have a 5-way system with the SH50 high passed at 100hz and either:

Opt A. 2 x 218 from say 40-100hz and 1 x 218LC from 20-40hz OR

Opt B. Since punch requires less power to obtain, perhaps 2 x 218LC from 15/20-40hz and 1 x 218 from 40-100hz?

This will be more of a lounge (mature audience, 30+) rather than a hardcore EDM club. We will have a mix of live bands and EDM, depending on the whims of the audience.

---

Noted re the THSpud. Thank you for the buttkicker idea. I am not familiar with it but I can imagine what its intentions are . I will look into it.

VERY often we see the idea of "different subs covering different freq ranges"

While this may "seem" like a good idea, it is VERY hard to actually do.  The freq response of different subs are not flat, the phase response is not the same etc.

Crossover filters do not stop the freq at that point, they are simply a point on a curve.

It is all of the overlapping of different ranges that makes it MUCH harder to do in reality.  This happens with any models of subs.

What people "think" they are doing is often VERY different than what is ACTUALLY happening.

I have not tried to align an LC version with a regular version, because it is something I would not recommend.

It might be able to be done, but the only way is to try it, measure it, and see what can be done.

When you start to add a live band, the "smearing" of the low freq will typically be more noticeable.

It is (in most cases) best to stick with a single model of sub.  If you mix them up, you MUST know what you are doing when it comes to getting the phase correct, or it will just be a big mess.

I still say 2 BC218s would be your best bet.  Unless the height is just to much.

Another tip.  Since you mentioned live bands, it would be a VERY GOOD IDEA to build a chamber around the subs to isolate them from the stage above.

This is not as big a deal with DJs, but when you add open mics, the low end coming off of the subs is going to be a REAL ISSUE you will have to deal with.

I suggest double layer sheet rock (5/8") with overlapping seams, glued AND screwed and joints mudded and taped.  It does not have to be sanded well (nobody will see it), but you do want it AIR TIGHT on all sides except the opening.

[ProSoundWeb Community]