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Author Topic: Large install, small budget  (Read 5535 times)

Travis Dean TenKley

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Re: Large install, small budget
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2017, 08:41:04 pm »

If there is budget for 6 speakers I might consider 3 or 4 and a used DSP.

Biamp audia flex's can be had pretty cheap on eBay and can be quite powerful....   food for thought.


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Ok.  Thanks for the help.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Large install, small budget
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2017, 10:43:28 pm »

If there is budget for 6 speakers I might consider 3 or 4 and a used DSP.

Biamp audia flex's can be had pretty cheap on eBay and can be quite powerful....   food for thought.


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The cost of flying them will be close to the cost of the speakers.  MI grade powered boxes 50' in the air is a poor choice.

I would look for narrow dispersion horns to handle the mids and highs, keep the sound off the walls.  This will get you the intelligibility.  Now some type of LF cluster (not subs think 400hz and down).  You want the amp on the ground where you can service them.  The amp(s) will also have the DSP built in.

The fact you don't know that electricity travels at the speed of light so propagation delay is not relevant in an analog signal (think phone lines) makes us all doubt you can manage this project to a successful conclusion.  The rigging is a big deal.  It may require fabrication and someone needs to sign off on the attachment points.

Check your ego and engage these folks trying to help.  It's the right thing to do for your client.



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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
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Travis Dean TenKley

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Re: Large install, small budget
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2017, 11:18:52 pm »

The cost of flying them will be close to the cost of the speakers.  MI grade powered boxes 50' in the air is a poor choice.

I would look for narrow dispersion horns to handle the mids and highs, keep the sound off the walls.  This will get you the intelligibility.  Now some type of LF cluster (not subs think 400hz and down).  You want the amp on the ground where you can service them.  The amp(s) will also have the DSP built in.

The fact you don't know that electricity travels at the speed of light so propagation delay is not relevant in an analog signal (think phone lines) makes us all doubt you can manage this project to a successful conclusion.  The rigging is a big deal.  It may require fabrication and someone needs to sign off on the attachment points.

Check your ego and engage these folks trying to help.  It's the right thing to do for your client.

I respecfully disagree with you 100%.  I have contacted qsc before on flying and hanging qsc k and kla series speakers.  I have purchased all brackets and hardware from them and talked to their tech aboit it and there is no issue with them.
Secondly, i am not installing them just getting the information to the owners and they will do with it what they wish.  I have contracts in place for liability issues.
Your idea about mid and highs is what i was thinking and adding subs for them at a later date when they have more money.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Large install, small budget
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2017, 02:33:43 am »

I respecfully disagree with you 100%.  I have contacted qsc before on flying and hanging qsc k and kla series speakers.  I have purchased all brackets and hardware from them and talked to their tech aboit it and there is no issue with them.
Secondly, i am not installing them just getting the information to the owners and they will do with it what they wish.  I have contracts in place for liability issues.
Your idea about mid and highs is what i was thinking and adding subs for them at a later date when they have more money.

QSC can tell you how to attach the speakers to the structure, they can't validate the design of the mount.  A cluster frame for the center is a custom affair.

If you are consulting to the owners you need to validate you design and installation standards.  Sure we are making assumptions about your knowledge based on your initial question and general presentation of your ideas. 

If you have already modeled the space and have structural design and haven't shared it with us, sorry.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Large install, small budget
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2017, 08:04:49 am »

I would START with getting actual dimensions or close enough), and then doing a model for coverage.

It is ALSO a good idea to look at more than just coverage, but also the arrival times.

The late arrivals is what "kills" the sound of most systems.

It is the steady state signal vs impulse response.

There is A LOT more to it than playing some music with a speaker on the ground and "hoping" that the same thing will happen when you put a number of them in the air.
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Craig Hauber

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Re: Large install, small budget
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2017, 11:15:05 am »

The cost of flying them will be close to the cost of the speakers.  MI grade powered boxes 50' in the air is a poor choice.

I would look for narrow dispersion horns to handle the mids and highs, keep the sound off the walls.  This will get you the intelligibility.  Now some type of LF cluster (not subs think 400hz and down).  You want the amp on the ground where you can service them.  The amp(s) will also have the DSP built in.

Its always frustrated me to see people installing "music store" portable PA products when there's catalogs full of gear intended for permanent installation that in the long-run gives you far better value per dollar.

And any self-powered box shouldn't be flown where you can't easily reach the amp module for service or cleaning.  (found a down-pointing mackie in a nightclub the other day with a 1" thick "pad" of thick dust-fluff on the back of it -and they wonder why it suddenly quit working?)
And of course you can no longer reach it safely with lift or even ladder because they built a bar below it sometime in the last 10 years!

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Craig Hauber
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Re: Large install, small budget
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2017, 12:43:28 pm »

Its always frustrated me to see people installing "music store" portable PA products when there's catalogs full of gear intended for permanent installation that in the long-run gives you far better value per dollar.

And any self-powered box shouldn't be flown where you can't easily reach the amp module for service or cleaning.  (found a down-pointing mackie in a nightclub the other day with a 1" thick "pad" of thick dust-fluff on the back of it -and they wonder why it suddenly quit working?)
And of course you can no longer reach it safely with lift or even ladder because they built a bar below it sometime in the last 10 years!

Nail on the head, Craig.  As conceived, this is not a practical flyable system.  It's more "fly-by-night" than anything else and reeks of risk when arming the unwitting and fatally frugal business owner with a little knowledge...as in "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

Very irresponsible.
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Don T. Williams

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Re: Large install, small budget
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2017, 03:41:02 pm »

A football field is 360 feet so no, but it was an old marina shop so it is very large.
Just an educated answer to my question would be greatly appreciated.

My reply wasn't meant as a snide remark.  It was just my opinion from 40 years of experience.  The NFL lists the area of a football field as 57,600 sq. feet.  Your building is 60,000 sq. feet.  It IS bigger than a football field!
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Large install, small budget
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2017, 04:44:36 pm »

My reply wasn't meant as a snide remark.  It was just my opinion from 40 years of experience.  The NFL lists the area of a football field as 57,600 sq. feet.  Your building is 60,000 sq. feet.  It IS bigger than a football field!

I have now doubt the OP thinks we are a bunch of assholes.  There is no right way of handling the situation.  Someone comes in asking for advice, the only real advice is none of your ideas are valid and the defensiveness begins.

The worst part is there are 100's if not 1000's of crappy PA's installed by the maintenance guy in huge spaces all over the country.  They are unintelligible and mostly ignored. That's all people expect.  Nobody pays attention to the PA except us sound geeks so on the odd chance they visited a venue with a properly installed system they might not even pay attention.

It can't be wrong if everyone does it this way, right?

So we tilt and windmills trying to find the lone convert. 

It's not about the product.  Properly integrated marginal equipment works much better than poorly deployed consumer gear.  The plethora of capable, powered 12" BR boxes is not a panacea.  System design is the key.
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Don T. Williams

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Re: Large install, small budget
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2017, 05:45:43 pm »

I have now doubt the OP thinks we are a bunch of assholes.  There is no right way of handling the situation.  Someone comes in asking for advice, the only real advice is none of your ideas are valid and the defensiveness begins.

The worst part is there are 100's if not 1000's of crappy PA's installed by the maintenance guy in huge spaces all over the country.  They are unintelligible and mostly ignored. That's all people expect.  Nobody pays attention to the PA except us sound geeks so on the odd chance they visited a venue with a properly installed system they might not even pay attention.

So we tilt and windmills trying to find the lone convert. 

It's not about the product.  Properly integrated marginal equipment works much better than poorly deployed consumer gear.  The plethora of capable, powered 12" BR boxes is not a panacea.  System design is the key.


Scott you are correct, except it is in the 10's of thousands.  I've seen heavy speakers suspended over people using rope through plastic handles.  I just lost a church system sale because I refused to sell them a loudspeaker system (with factory flying parts) that they want to suspend on a wood laminated beam.  I ask for an engineer to signoff on the safety aspect.  They said that wasn't needed because they new it would support thousands of pounds.  I refused the sale without an engineering report.
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Re: Large install, small budget
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2017, 05:45:43 pm »


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