ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 [2] 3  All   Go Down

Author Topic: vocal PA for small spaces  (Read 5212 times)

Lee Buckalew

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1329
  • St. Louis, MO area
    • Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2017, 05:35:30 pm »

Iím in the process of determining what I want in a portable PA for use in small spaces with an audience area around 900 square feet indoors or out. Our band is three to four people and when we play these size spaces, the instruments are either acoustic or have their own amplifier. Thus far we have been playing them instrumental and want to add vocals. We need reinforcement for the vocals so they can accompany a drum set and small combo amps. The PA will be used exclusively for the microphones of one or two vocalists. It will not grow in the future. We hire a production company for anything larger.

A speaker with good pattern control is a benefit. Narrower dispersion will help limit reflections in indoor spaces and increase gain before feedback, but our use is essentially near-field and wider dispersion may be fine if they are well controlled. Maybe you can tell me what you think will work better.

Here are some of the options Iím considering now. Iím also open to your ideas. Iím interested to know what reason makes one or another compelling for my use.

Meyer UPJ-1P for house and floor
Danley SM100 for house, one SM100M on the floor
Danley SM60F for house, one SM100M for floor
KV2 EX10 for house and floor
RCFTT-08A for house and TT25-SMA for floor
NEXO PS10 R2 for house and floor with amps and system controllers
L'Acoustics 108P for house and floor
Fulcrum FA28AC for house and floor

We are working musicians. I am not looking for the pinnacle of sonic quality for a gentlemanís hobby.  Our music is profitable and we want to add vocals to these small venues at a high level of quality.  I appreciate the advice that will be pertinent to a fellow professional.

I would suggest giving a listen to the Martin CDD-LIVE 12's as both mains and monitors. 
They are self powered and have built in, user configurable processing. 
They are less money than the Meyers that you listed and also less than the Danley SM100 or SM100M (yes, lower cost with included power and DSP while the Danley's are passive).
In my listening and use they provide much more definition than the others (you can distinctly hear each individual guitar, each voice, etc.) in that sense they are not forgiving of a poor mix because they provide great detail and clarity. 

I have not listened side by side with any of the other boxes that you listed.

The CDD series provides a unique approach to HF pattern control.  Look them up https://martin-audio.com/products/series/cdd-live and check out the technology.

Worth a listen if you can. 

Lee
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 05:40:26 pm by Lee Buckalew »
Logged
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

Stephen Kirby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3006
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2017, 07:59:30 pm »

+1
I was thinking DSR112 or DXR12 would easily cover that are for FOH.
Not sure I'd want to use DSR112s as near field.  I try to keep mine up over people's heads and use them when I can have some distance from the audience.  In coffee shop type things I'll use my K10s instead.  Although I would suggest DXR10s for vocal only instead.  Haven't listened to these in comparison to things like the Nexo, Danley or Fulcrum.  There may be a bit more clarity in those.  I've heard UP-J's at close range and they won't burn holes in your ears but aren't naturally warm like the Yamahas.

As mentioned in another thread, none of the front mounted woofer +horn boxes will have pattern control down low.  And I'd want to check out the polar plots and listen off axis to any finalists.  From my own experience, the K10s have much less HF off axis within the spec'd pattern than the DXRs.  So I would expect the similarly design Nexos to have better off axis consistency.  While the horn loaded coaxs will have some pattern control over a broader frequency range, I'm not sure how well they disperse the upper HF within their 80-100 degree patterns given the transitions between the coax throat and the cone/waveguide.
Logged

Mike Pyle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 968
  • Santa Rosa, CA
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2017, 01:47:13 am »

Also consider the Tannoy VXP12, for both main and monitor.
Logged
Mike Pyle  Audiopyle Sound  707-315-6204
Dealer For: JBL, Soundcraft, Crown, dbx, AKG, Yorkville, EV, QSC, RCF, FBT, Danley Sound Labs, Fulcrum Acoustic, Tannoy, Lab Gruppen, Powersoft, Linea Research, VTC, EAW, Allen & Heath, Ashly, APB, Audix, One Systems, OnPoint Audio, Presonus, K&M, Ultimate, Global Truss, Road Ready, SKB, Gator, Radial Engineering, Turbosound, Midas, dB Technologies, American DJ, Odyssey, ProCo, Rapco, CBI, Elation, Mipro, Chauvet, Blizzard, Shure, Whirlwind, Bassboss, Yamaha, Line 6, Behringer, Whirlwind, On-Stage, more...

Weogo Reed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Western NC,
    • LiveEdge
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2017, 11:13:09 am »

Hi Adebayo,

One of the advantages of going with this level of boxes is reliability  -  they are likely to work well for quite a few gigs.

For a couple vocals, any of the boxes you note will likely work well in many venues.
A big factor may or may not be venue acoustics.
For me, regular use in concrete or marble and glass halls would dictate a pair of Danley SM60Fs, with the factory tilting yokes.
My summer folk music concert series in a 4000s.f. soft-seat concert hall, but with some significant reflections, is nicely covered by a pair of SM60Fs, a center-fill and a TH28 sub.

Outdoors often means few reflections, and volume will drop off quite quickly.
But a 30' x 30' area is still fairly small and easy to cover.

How much are visuals an issue?
For many venues, the wide, even coverage of a single Danley SM100 just off center could do vocals very nicely.

Who will move this equipment, how big is the vehicle, where is it all stored?
If fast setup/strike is an issue, smaller, lighter boxes can be a good choice.
I like the EX10 for compact mains.

For a vocal monitor, the Danley SM100M is great.
For many venues, a 108P would likely be more than adequate.
I would also consider the Tannoy 8", and the 8" version of the Martin box Lee mentioned is likely worth a listen.

For me it is perfectly fine to mix brands between main and monitor speakers.

What will you be mixing with? 
The Mackie DL806 could work well, and it has a very good, easy to use Ipad app.

Good health,  Weogo
Logged

David Hoover

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 168
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2017, 09:09:30 am »

Iím in the process of determining what I want in a portable PA for use in small spaces with an audience area around 900 square feet indoors or out. Our band is three to four people and when we play these size spaces, the instruments are either acoustic or have their own amplifier. Thus far we have been playing them instrumental and want to add vocals. We need reinforcement for the vocals so they can accompany a drum set and small combo amps. The PA will be used exclusively for the microphones of one or two vocalists. It will not grow in the future. We hire a production company for anything larger.

A speaker with good pattern control is a benefit. Narrower dispersion will help limit reflections in indoor spaces and increase gain before feedback, but our use is essentially near-field and wider dispersion may be fine if they are well controlled. Maybe you can tell me what you think will work better.

Here are some of the options Iím considering now. Iím also open to your ideas. Iím interested to know what reason makes one or another compelling for my use.

Meyer UPJ-1P for house and floor
Danley SM100 for house, one SM100M on the floor
Danley SM60F for house, one SM100M for floor
KV2 EX10 for house and floor
RCFTT-08A for house and TT25-SMA for floor
NEXO PS10 R2 for house and floor with amps and system controllers
L'Acoustics 108P for house and floor
Fulcrum FA28AC for house and floor

We are working musicians. I am not looking for the pinnacle of sonic quality for a gentlemanís hobby.  Our music is profitable and we want to add vocals to these small venues at a high level of quality.  I appreciate the advice that will be pertinent to a fellow professional.
I've used to do this sort of thing a lot.  If I were to do exactly what you are doing, I'd get two powered Danley Sound Labs SM96 speakers.  Sometimes the 90 degree pattern is needed I've found to fill some spaces.  They cut off hard outside the pattern.  Plus, these speakers go comfortably down to about 50 Hz.  However, if you are used to a regular 90 degree speaker or 60 degree, these seem wider due to their consistent coverage at all frequencies, but they will cut off hard at the edge.  We have SM60F speakers as well, but they are pretty narrow and more for a reverberant space needing tamed IMHO.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Logged

Martin Morris

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 55
    • Spherical
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2017, 06:36:28 am »


In my listening and use they provide much more definition than the others (you can distinctly hear each individual guitar, each voice, etc.)

Lee

I gotta ask Lee - In what "WAY" did the Martin CDD-LIVE 12's have more definition to the others?

Meyer UPJ-1P for house and floor
Danley SM100 for house, one SM100M on the floor
Danley SM60F for house, one SM100M for floor
KV2 EX10 for house and floor
RCFTT-08A for house and TT25-SMA for floor
NEXO PS10 R2 for house and floor with amps and system controllers
L'Acoustics 108P for house and floor
Fulcrum FA28AC for house and floor

 (you can distinctly hear each individual guitar, each voice, etc.)

Much more implies a lot!! - can you explain how the Fulcrum FA28AC or the Danley SM60F & L'Acoustics 108P and the others listed lacked detail?

Cheers
Martin

Edit: to keep it "real"
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 06:54:11 am by Martin Morris »
Logged
XTA Distributor

Lee Buckalew

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1329
  • St. Louis, MO area
    • Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2017, 07:59:16 am »

I gotta ask Lee - In what "WAY" did the Martin CDD-LIVE 12's have more definition to the others?

Meyer UPJ-1P for house and floor
Danley SM100 for house, one SM100M on the floor
Danley SM60F for house, one SM100M for floor
KV2 EX10 for house and floor
RCFTT-08A for house and TT25-SMA for floor
NEXO PS10 R2 for house and floor with amps and system controllers
L'Acoustics 108P for house and floor
Fulcrum FA28AC for house and floor

 (you can distinctly hear each individual guitar, each voice, etc.)

Much more implies a lot!! - can you explain how the Fulcrum FA28AC or the Danley SM60F & L'Acoustics 108P and the others listed lacked detail?

Cheers
Martin

Edit: to keep it "real"

I believe that I clearly indicated which speakers I was talking about (the Meyer UPJ-1P, the Danley SM100 and the Danley SM100M) and also indicated that I had not heard any of the other speakers in the OP's list side by side with the CDD-LIVE 12's (so certainly could not and did not give an opinion regarding those).

If I was not clear, my apologies and allow me to clarify now.

So, for the 4 speaker models that I was talking about, side by side, with exactly the same program material, no EQ (and an outboard amp for the passive speakers) I certainly mean significantly better detail and definition was to be heard from the Martin Audio offering.

With a duet, trio, quartet, etc. (up through 6 separate voices, individually miced) of singers you could distinctly hear the individual voices with the CDD-LIVE while with the other 3 examples the voices were a blend, lacking the distinct individual nuances that allowed you to identify them as a separate voice.  The same went for listening with multiple guitars and other complex multi-part pieces.  In this regard the Meyer, in its vertical orientation and on axis, was better than the 2 Danley's mentioned but still below the CDD-LIVE 12.  Both the Danley and the Martin offering (that I was comparing) maintained there sonic characteristics as you moved throughout their coverage areas.  The Meyer suffered in comparison to both the Danley's and the CDD-LIVE mentioned as you move off axis due to its driver offset.  It is especially bad, as is expected, when the horn is rotated and the cabinet is horizontal.  Reflections off nearby surfaces exacerbate this physical alignment difference.

For monitors in particular this blending of different sounds can be quite problematic as it requires a great deal more EQ of each mix component and it often forces artist to ask for more level when what they really need is more clarity.  EQ may allow some of these clarity differences to be overcome, level however will not create clarity and creates more problems for clarity esp cially when it must be applied across multiple monitor mixes.  Increasing stage wash kills a clear mix in the house.

I have listened to the CDD-LIVE speakers with other people who did not care for the definition provided and preferred the speakers that provided a blending of parts.  I cannot argue with their preference I can only say what was heard which was a greater or lesser degrees of clarity from one speaker to the next.
I also encouraged the OP to go and listen for himself since that is the only way he will know what speakers will perform to his satisfaction.

Lee
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 08:22:38 am by Lee Buckalew »
Logged
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

Adebayo Sulaiman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2017, 08:56:21 pm »

My interest is piqued by your description. I think the best opportunity I would have to hear one would be to buy one. Some of the things you describe might be expected of a coaxial speaker, and I would be particularly interested in this for monitoring. I wonder if the smaller CCD8 or 10 would be worth considering.
     I was intending to put only the vocals in the PA, but on the weekend, one of the band was having trouble hearing the lead guitar. Thereís a shortcoming of not having monitors. The combo amps seem sufficient for the small spaces we play but they donít always have the coverage for the audience and monitoring from every stage position, especially outside. Considering I might end up putting guitar in the monitors, I probably donít want to go too small.
     I was also considering the the Presonus StudioLive 328AI, another coaxial. I was thinking of buying one to try it as I understand it has some similarities to the higher priced Fulcrum Acoustics FA28ac. I wouldn't rule out the Fulcrum based on price, but four of them would cost me $15,000 more than four of the Presonus. I would want to be sure I had a convincing reason before spending that much more. On the other hand, I'm wary of the apparent lack of acceptance shown for the Presonus despite the few good reviews.
     If I could get a couple of the Martins for the same as one Fulcrum or Meyer, I wonder what reason Iíd have not to try one and buy more if it works out.
     Another suggestion was for the Danley SM96.  I appreciate that.  This might be a better solution than the SM100 I originally considered, and they would probably be the most capable of covering much larger areas than anything else proposed, but the list price I have for two the powered versions and a couple of monitors would be the highest of anything proposed by a good margin.  Again, I could spend that but I would have to ask whether my use justifies the expense. The pattern control would certainly be better to a lower frequency. CCD12 monitors and SM96 mains maybe?
Logged

Lee Buckalew

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1329
  • St. Louis, MO area
    • Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2017, 09:52:23 pm »

My interest is piqued by your description. I think the best opportunity I would have to hear one would be to buy one. Some of the things you describe might be expected of a coaxial speaker, and I would be particularly interested in this for monitoring. I wonder if the smaller CCD8 or 10 would be worth considering.
     I was intending to put only the vocals in the PA, but on the weekend, one of the band was having trouble hearing the lead guitar. Thereís a shortcoming of not having monitors. The combo amps seem sufficient for the small spaces we play but they donít always have the coverage for the audience and monitoring from every stage position, especially outside. Considering I might end up putting guitar in the monitors, I probably donít want to go too small.
     I was also considering the the Presonus StudioLive 328AI, another coaxial. I was thinking of buying one to try it as I understand it has some similarities to the higher priced Fulcrum Acoustics FA28ac. I wouldn't rule out the Fulcrum based on price, but four of them would cost me $15,000 more than four of the Presonus. I would want to be sure I had a convincing reason before spending that much more. On the other hand, I'm wary of the apparent lack of acceptance shown for the Presonus despite the few good reviews.
     If I could get a couple of the Martins for the same as one Fulcrum or Meyer, I wonder what reason Iíd have not to try one and buy more if it works out.
     Another suggestion was for the Danley SM96.  I appreciate that.  This might be a better solution than the SM100 I originally considered, and they would probably be the most capable of covering much larger areas than anything else proposed, but the list price I have for two the powered versions and a couple of monitors would be the highest of anything proposed by a good margin.  Again, I could spend that but I would have to ask whether my use justifies the expense. The pattern control would certainly be better to a lower frequency. CCD12 monitors and SM96 mains maybe?

Where are you located? 
A demo may not be too difficult to arrange, it all depends on the dealer network and rep in your area.

Please keep in mind when looking for demo's that the CDD series is an install box that is passive, the CDD-LIVE is a portable box with handles and pole mount in addition to rigging fittings and they are self-powered.   

In CDD-LIVE there are only 8", 12", and 15" and there are two CSX-LIVE sub options.

I had suggested that you look at the CDD-LIVE 12's only because of the price range of some of the other speakers that you were considering. 
The CDD-LIVE 8's work very well as a vocal speaker

Lee
Logged
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

Robert Lunceford

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 425
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2017, 03:03:25 am »

I would suggest giving a listen to the Martin CDD-LIVE 12's as both mains and monitors. 
They are self powered and have built in, user configurable processing. 
They are less money than the Meyers that you listed and also less than the Danley SM100 or SM100M (yes, lower cost with included power and DSP while the Danley's are passive).
In my listening and use they provide much more definition than the others (you can distinctly hear each individual guitar, each voice, etc.) in that sense they are not forgiving of a poor mix because they provide great detail and clarity. 

I have not listened side by side with any of the other boxes that you listed.

The CDD series provides a unique approach to HF pattern control.  Look them up https://martin-audio.com/products/series/cdd-live and check out the technology.

Worth a listen if you can. 

Lee

Hi Lee,
The Martin CDD series look very innovative and I would bet they sound as good as you say.
I think one advantage that the Danley's would have is that they use off the shelf drivers that are very easy to obtain.
What would be your estimate in delivery time and cost if you had to order one of the proprietary Martin CDD drivers?
I recall Ivan writing that if you had the correct tools and knew what you were doing, it would take 10 minutes to replace the driver in an SM80.
Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: vocal PA for small spaces
¬ę Reply #19 on: August 02, 2017, 03:03:25 am ¬Ľ


Pages: 1 [2] 3  All   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.053 seconds with 23 queries.