ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: vocal PA for small spaces  (Read 5120 times)

Adebayo Sulaiman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
vocal PA for small spaces
« on: July 27, 2017, 02:44:45 am »

Iím in the process of determining what I want in a portable PA for use in small spaces with an audience area around 900 square feet indoors or out. Our band is three to four people and when we play these size spaces, the instruments are either acoustic or have their own amplifier. Thus far we have been playing them instrumental and want to add vocals. We need reinforcement for the vocals so they can accompany a drum set and small combo amps. The PA will be used exclusively for the microphones of one or two vocalists. It will not grow in the future. We hire a production company for anything larger.

A speaker with good pattern control is a benefit. Narrower dispersion will help limit reflections in indoor spaces and increase gain before feedback, but our use is essentially near-field and wider dispersion may be fine if they are well controlled. Maybe you can tell me what you think will work better.

Here are some of the options Iím considering now. Iím also open to your ideas. Iím interested to know what reason makes one or another compelling for my use.

Meyer UPJ-1P for house and floor
Danley SM100 for house, one SM100M on the floor
Danley SM60F for house, one SM100M for floor
KV2 EX10 for house and floor
RCFTT-08A for house and TT25-SMA for floor
NEXO PS10 R2 for house and floor with amps and system controllers
L'Acoustics 108P for house and floor
Fulcrum FA28AC for house and floor

We are working musicians. I am not looking for the pinnacle of sonic quality for a gentlemanís hobby.  Our music is profitable and we want to add vocals to these small venues at a high level of quality.  I appreciate the advice that will be pertinent to a fellow professional.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 03:49:10 am by Adebayo Sulaiman »
Logged

Ray Aberle

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3417
  • Located in Vancouver, WA (and serves OR-WA-ID-BC)
    • Kelcema Audio
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2017, 08:47:26 am »

Based on your current choices, we can get a gist of your budget, but is there a maximum amount that you are able/willing to spend on this upgrade?

-Ray
Logged
Kelcema Audio
Regional - Serving Pacific Northwest (OR, WA, ID, BC)

g'bye, Dick Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7424
  • Duluth
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2017, 09:29:40 am »

House and floor?  Clarify...
Logged
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

Chris Grimshaw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1250
  • Sheffield, UK
    • Grimshaw Audio
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2017, 10:19:37 am »

House and floor?  Clarify...

I think they mean FOH and monitoring.

Chris
Logged
Sheffield-based sound engineering.
www.grimshawaudio.com

Mal Brown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 730
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2017, 11:15:03 am »

Have you listened to some of the 'Pro-sumer' boxes from QSC, Yamaha and EV ?  For what you describe, starting with good mic's and a good mixer, QSC K10's would be worth a listen in my book.  They are 105 degree boxes which in wide and shallow spaces can be an advantage.  The also have a 7.5 degree tilt down feature.  In reflective spaces, put them up high, toe them in and use the tilt down. 

I have done many blue grass, gypsy jazz and folkie shows with those.  You could put 2 up and 2 down for the price of one of the boxes you mentioned...

I see one acoustic act roll through my area that uses the Meyer box. Awesome players.  Using sm-58's and basic DI's.  Compact mixer of some type...  I have no idea what those Meyer's can actually sound like as the quality of the input to them is weak at best.  Were they using step up mic's and di's and a decent board I would have a much clearer idea...

Point is that the speaker is only as good as the input will let it be andso it is only 1 piece of the puzzle...
Logged
Bass player, sound guy.
Fb Gorge Sound and Light
WillyandNelson.com

Dave Garoutte

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1846
  • San Rafael, CA
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2017, 12:29:36 pm »

Have you listened to some of the 'Pro-sumer' boxes from QSC, Yamaha and EV ? 

For what you describe, like as the quality of the input to them is weak at best.  Were they using step up mic's and di's and a decent board I would have a much clearer idea...
Point is that the speaker is only as good as the input will let it be and so it is only 1 piece of the puzzle...

+1
I was thinking DSR112 or DXR12 would easily cover that are for FOH.
Logged
Nothing can be made idiot-proof; only idiot resistant.

Events.  Stage, PA, Lighting and Backline rentals.
Chauvet dealer.  Home of the Angler.
Inventor.

BrianHenry

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 166
  • NJ
    • Mountainside Studios, LLC
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2017, 01:02:21 pm »

Have you listened to some of the 'Pro-sumer' boxes from QSC, Yamaha and EV ?  For what you describe, starting with good mic's and a good mixer, QSC K10's would be worth a listen in my book.  They are 105 degree boxes which in wide and shallow spaces can be an advantage.  The also have a 7.5 degree tilt down feature.  In reflective spaces, put them up high, toe them in and use the tilt down. 

I'm pretty sure the K10 is 90 degrees.

 I agree the built in tilt down is a great feature.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged

Adebayo Sulaiman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2017, 01:21:04 pm »

Based on your current choices, we can get a gist of your budget, but is there a maximum amount that you are able/willing to spend on this upgrade?

-Ray

There is no maximum, but my purpose is not to daydream about the pinnacle of sonic quality at any cost. This is this not a hobby. I consider the work important to do right and Iím willing to make the commitment to what that takes because I know doing it right will be profitable.

Have you listened to some of the 'Pro-sumer' boxes from QSC, Yamaha and EV ? ...You could put 2 up and 2 down for the price of one of the boxes you mentioned...

Do they have good pattern control? Honestly I do not know how much better off I would be with a professional speaker of a portable size, but I am not trying to save a few bucks.  I know after a few performances the difference in cost will be meaningless. A shortfall in performance will set us back a lot farther than a little money lost.
Logged

Brian Jojade

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1459
    • HappyMac Digital Electronics
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2017, 01:40:20 pm »

I'll probably get shot for recommending this, but the BOSE sticks work pretty well in small spaces like that, if you're not looking for ear bleed volumes.
Logged
Brian Jojade

lindsay Dean

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 638
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2017, 03:07:16 pm »

wait...Bose.......what?
boomy beamy= not good
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 04:04:39 pm by lindsay Dean »
Logged
"A mans got to know his limitations"
     and Pray for higher guidance

Lee Buckalew

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1327
  • St. Louis, MO area
    • Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2017, 05:35:30 pm »

Iím in the process of determining what I want in a portable PA for use in small spaces with an audience area around 900 square feet indoors or out. Our band is three to four people and when we play these size spaces, the instruments are either acoustic or have their own amplifier. Thus far we have been playing them instrumental and want to add vocals. We need reinforcement for the vocals so they can accompany a drum set and small combo amps. The PA will be used exclusively for the microphones of one or two vocalists. It will not grow in the future. We hire a production company for anything larger.

A speaker with good pattern control is a benefit. Narrower dispersion will help limit reflections in indoor spaces and increase gain before feedback, but our use is essentially near-field and wider dispersion may be fine if they are well controlled. Maybe you can tell me what you think will work better.

Here are some of the options Iím considering now. Iím also open to your ideas. Iím interested to know what reason makes one or another compelling for my use.

Meyer UPJ-1P for house and floor
Danley SM100 for house, one SM100M on the floor
Danley SM60F for house, one SM100M for floor
KV2 EX10 for house and floor
RCFTT-08A for house and TT25-SMA for floor
NEXO PS10 R2 for house and floor with amps and system controllers
L'Acoustics 108P for house and floor
Fulcrum FA28AC for house and floor

We are working musicians. I am not looking for the pinnacle of sonic quality for a gentlemanís hobby.  Our music is profitable and we want to add vocals to these small venues at a high level of quality.  I appreciate the advice that will be pertinent to a fellow professional.

I would suggest giving a listen to the Martin CDD-LIVE 12's as both mains and monitors. 
They are self powered and have built in, user configurable processing. 
They are less money than the Meyers that you listed and also less than the Danley SM100 or SM100M (yes, lower cost with included power and DSP while the Danley's are passive).
In my listening and use they provide much more definition than the others (you can distinctly hear each individual guitar, each voice, etc.) in that sense they are not forgiving of a poor mix because they provide great detail and clarity. 

I have not listened side by side with any of the other boxes that you listed.

The CDD series provides a unique approach to HF pattern control.  Look them up https://martin-audio.com/products/series/cdd-live and check out the technology.

Worth a listen if you can. 

Lee
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 05:40:26 pm by Lee Buckalew »
Logged
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

Stephen Kirby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3006
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2017, 07:59:30 pm »

+1
I was thinking DSR112 or DXR12 would easily cover that are for FOH.
Not sure I'd want to use DSR112s as near field.  I try to keep mine up over people's heads and use them when I can have some distance from the audience.  In coffee shop type things I'll use my K10s instead.  Although I would suggest DXR10s for vocal only instead.  Haven't listened to these in comparison to things like the Nexo, Danley or Fulcrum.  There may be a bit more clarity in those.  I've heard UP-J's at close range and they won't burn holes in your ears but aren't naturally warm like the Yamahas.

As mentioned in another thread, none of the front mounted woofer +horn boxes will have pattern control down low.  And I'd want to check out the polar plots and listen off axis to any finalists.  From my own experience, the K10s have much less HF off axis within the spec'd pattern than the DXRs.  So I would expect the similarly design Nexos to have better off axis consistency.  While the horn loaded coaxs will have some pattern control over a broader frequency range, I'm not sure how well they disperse the upper HF within their 80-100 degree patterns given the transitions between the coax throat and the cone/waveguide.
Logged

Mike Pyle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 957
  • Santa Rosa, CA
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2017, 01:47:13 am »

Also consider the Tannoy VXP12, for both main and monitor.
Logged
Mike Pyle  Audiopyle Sound  707-315-6204
Dealer For: JBL, Soundcraft, Crown, dbx, AKG, Yorkville, EV, QSC, RCF, FBT, Danley Sound Labs, Fulcrum Acoustic, Tannoy, Lab Gruppen, Powersoft, Linea Research, VTC, EAW, Allen & Heath, Ashly, APB, Audix, One Systems, OnPoint Audio, Presonus, K&M, Ultimate, Global Truss, Road Ready, SKB, Gator, Radial Engineering, Turbosound, Midas, dB Technologies, American DJ, Odyssey, ProCo, Rapco, CBI, Elation, Mipro, Chauvet, Blizzard, Shure, Whirlwind, Bassboss, Yamaha, Line 6, Behringer, Whirlwind, On-Stage, more...

Weogo Reed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 231
  • Western NC,
    • LiveEdge
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2017, 11:13:09 am »

Hi Adebayo,

One of the advantages of going with this level of boxes is reliability  -  they are likely to work well for quite a few gigs.

For a couple vocals, any of the boxes you note will likely work well in many venues.
A big factor may or may not be venue acoustics.
For me, regular use in concrete or marble and glass halls would dictate a pair of Danley SM60Fs, with the factory tilting yokes.
My summer folk music concert series in a 4000s.f. soft-seat concert hall, but with some significant reflections, is nicely covered by a pair of SM60Fs, a center-fill and a TH28 sub.

Outdoors often means few reflections, and volume will drop off quite quickly.
But a 30' x 30' area is still fairly small and easy to cover.

How much are visuals an issue?
For many venues, the wide, even coverage of a single Danley SM100 just off center could do vocals very nicely.

Who will move this equipment, how big is the vehicle, where is it all stored?
If fast setup/strike is an issue, smaller, lighter boxes can be a good choice.
I like the EX10 for compact mains.

For a vocal monitor, the Danley SM100M is great.
For many venues, a 108P would likely be more than adequate.
I would also consider the Tannoy 8", and the 8" version of the Martin box Lee mentioned is likely worth a listen.

For me it is perfectly fine to mix brands between main and monitor speakers.

What will you be mixing with? 
The Mackie DL806 could work well, and it has a very good, easy to use Ipad app.

Good health,  Weogo
Logged

David Hoover

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 168
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2017, 09:09:30 am »

Iím in the process of determining what I want in a portable PA for use in small spaces with an audience area around 900 square feet indoors or out. Our band is three to four people and when we play these size spaces, the instruments are either acoustic or have their own amplifier. Thus far we have been playing them instrumental and want to add vocals. We need reinforcement for the vocals so they can accompany a drum set and small combo amps. The PA will be used exclusively for the microphones of one or two vocalists. It will not grow in the future. We hire a production company for anything larger.

A speaker with good pattern control is a benefit. Narrower dispersion will help limit reflections in indoor spaces and increase gain before feedback, but our use is essentially near-field and wider dispersion may be fine if they are well controlled. Maybe you can tell me what you think will work better.

Here are some of the options Iím considering now. Iím also open to your ideas. Iím interested to know what reason makes one or another compelling for my use.

Meyer UPJ-1P for house and floor
Danley SM100 for house, one SM100M on the floor
Danley SM60F for house, one SM100M for floor
KV2 EX10 for house and floor
RCFTT-08A for house and TT25-SMA for floor
NEXO PS10 R2 for house and floor with amps and system controllers
L'Acoustics 108P for house and floor
Fulcrum FA28AC for house and floor

We are working musicians. I am not looking for the pinnacle of sonic quality for a gentlemanís hobby.  Our music is profitable and we want to add vocals to these small venues at a high level of quality.  I appreciate the advice that will be pertinent to a fellow professional.
I've used to do this sort of thing a lot.  If I were to do exactly what you are doing, I'd get two powered Danley Sound Labs SM96 speakers.  Sometimes the 90 degree pattern is needed I've found to fill some spaces.  They cut off hard outside the pattern.  Plus, these speakers go comfortably down to about 50 Hz.  However, if you are used to a regular 90 degree speaker or 60 degree, these seem wider due to their consistent coverage at all frequencies, but they will cut off hard at the edge.  We have SM60F speakers as well, but they are pretty narrow and more for a reverberant space needing tamed IMHO.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Logged

Martin Morris

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 55
    • Spherical
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2017, 06:36:28 am »


In my listening and use they provide much more definition than the others (you can distinctly hear each individual guitar, each voice, etc.)

Lee

I gotta ask Lee - In what "WAY" did the Martin CDD-LIVE 12's have more definition to the others?

Meyer UPJ-1P for house and floor
Danley SM100 for house, one SM100M on the floor
Danley SM60F for house, one SM100M for floor
KV2 EX10 for house and floor
RCFTT-08A for house and TT25-SMA for floor
NEXO PS10 R2 for house and floor with amps and system controllers
L'Acoustics 108P for house and floor
Fulcrum FA28AC for house and floor

 (you can distinctly hear each individual guitar, each voice, etc.)

Much more implies a lot!! - can you explain how the Fulcrum FA28AC or the Danley SM60F & L'Acoustics 108P and the others listed lacked detail?

Cheers
Martin

Edit: to keep it "real"
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 06:54:11 am by Martin Morris »
Logged
XTA Distributor

Lee Buckalew

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1327
  • St. Louis, MO area
    • Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2017, 07:59:16 am »

I gotta ask Lee - In what "WAY" did the Martin CDD-LIVE 12's have more definition to the others?

Meyer UPJ-1P for house and floor
Danley SM100 for house, one SM100M on the floor
Danley SM60F for house, one SM100M for floor
KV2 EX10 for house and floor
RCFTT-08A for house and TT25-SMA for floor
NEXO PS10 R2 for house and floor with amps and system controllers
L'Acoustics 108P for house and floor
Fulcrum FA28AC for house and floor

 (you can distinctly hear each individual guitar, each voice, etc.)

Much more implies a lot!! - can you explain how the Fulcrum FA28AC or the Danley SM60F & L'Acoustics 108P and the others listed lacked detail?

Cheers
Martin

Edit: to keep it "real"

I believe that I clearly indicated which speakers I was talking about (the Meyer UPJ-1P, the Danley SM100 and the Danley SM100M) and also indicated that I had not heard any of the other speakers in the OP's list side by side with the CDD-LIVE 12's (so certainly could not and did not give an opinion regarding those).

If I was not clear, my apologies and allow me to clarify now.

So, for the 4 speaker models that I was talking about, side by side, with exactly the same program material, no EQ (and an outboard amp for the passive speakers) I certainly mean significantly better detail and definition was to be heard from the Martin Audio offering.

With a duet, trio, quartet, etc. (up through 6 separate voices, individually miced) of singers you could distinctly hear the individual voices with the CDD-LIVE while with the other 3 examples the voices were a blend, lacking the distinct individual nuances that allowed you to identify them as a separate voice.  The same went for listening with multiple guitars and other complex multi-part pieces.  In this regard the Meyer, in its vertical orientation and on axis, was better than the 2 Danley's mentioned but still below the CDD-LIVE 12.  Both the Danley and the Martin offering (that I was comparing) maintained there sonic characteristics as you moved throughout their coverage areas.  The Meyer suffered in comparison to both the Danley's and the CDD-LIVE mentioned as you move off axis due to its driver offset.  It is especially bad, as is expected, when the horn is rotated and the cabinet is horizontal.  Reflections off nearby surfaces exacerbate this physical alignment difference.

For monitors in particular this blending of different sounds can be quite problematic as it requires a great deal more EQ of each mix component and it often forces artist to ask for more level when what they really need is more clarity.  EQ may allow some of these clarity differences to be overcome, level however will not create clarity and creates more problems for clarity esp cially when it must be applied across multiple monitor mixes.  Increasing stage wash kills a clear mix in the house.

I have listened to the CDD-LIVE speakers with other people who did not care for the definition provided and preferred the speakers that provided a blending of parts.  I cannot argue with their preference I can only say what was heard which was a greater or lesser degrees of clarity from one speaker to the next.
I also encouraged the OP to go and listen for himself since that is the only way he will know what speakers will perform to his satisfaction.

Lee
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 08:22:38 am by Lee Buckalew »
Logged
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

Adebayo Sulaiman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2017, 08:56:21 pm »

My interest is piqued by your description. I think the best opportunity I would have to hear one would be to buy one. Some of the things you describe might be expected of a coaxial speaker, and I would be particularly interested in this for monitoring. I wonder if the smaller CCD8 or 10 would be worth considering.
     I was intending to put only the vocals in the PA, but on the weekend, one of the band was having trouble hearing the lead guitar. Thereís a shortcoming of not having monitors. The combo amps seem sufficient for the small spaces we play but they donít always have the coverage for the audience and monitoring from every stage position, especially outside. Considering I might end up putting guitar in the monitors, I probably donít want to go too small.
     I was also considering the the Presonus StudioLive 328AI, another coaxial. I was thinking of buying one to try it as I understand it has some similarities to the higher priced Fulcrum Acoustics FA28ac. I wouldn't rule out the Fulcrum based on price, but four of them would cost me $15,000 more than four of the Presonus. I would want to be sure I had a convincing reason before spending that much more. On the other hand, I'm wary of the apparent lack of acceptance shown for the Presonus despite the few good reviews.
     If I could get a couple of the Martins for the same as one Fulcrum or Meyer, I wonder what reason Iíd have not to try one and buy more if it works out.
     Another suggestion was for the Danley SM96.  I appreciate that.  This might be a better solution than the SM100 I originally considered, and they would probably be the most capable of covering much larger areas than anything else proposed, but the list price I have for two the powered versions and a couple of monitors would be the highest of anything proposed by a good margin.  Again, I could spend that but I would have to ask whether my use justifies the expense. The pattern control would certainly be better to a lower frequency. CCD12 monitors and SM96 mains maybe?
Logged

Lee Buckalew

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1327
  • St. Louis, MO area
    • Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2017, 09:52:23 pm »

My interest is piqued by your description. I think the best opportunity I would have to hear one would be to buy one. Some of the things you describe might be expected of a coaxial speaker, and I would be particularly interested in this for monitoring. I wonder if the smaller CCD8 or 10 would be worth considering.
     I was intending to put only the vocals in the PA, but on the weekend, one of the band was having trouble hearing the lead guitar. Thereís a shortcoming of not having monitors. The combo amps seem sufficient for the small spaces we play but they donít always have the coverage for the audience and monitoring from every stage position, especially outside. Considering I might end up putting guitar in the monitors, I probably donít want to go too small.
     I was also considering the the Presonus StudioLive 328AI, another coaxial. I was thinking of buying one to try it as I understand it has some similarities to the higher priced Fulcrum Acoustics FA28ac. I wouldn't rule out the Fulcrum based on price, but four of them would cost me $15,000 more than four of the Presonus. I would want to be sure I had a convincing reason before spending that much more. On the other hand, I'm wary of the apparent lack of acceptance shown for the Presonus despite the few good reviews.
     If I could get a couple of the Martins for the same as one Fulcrum or Meyer, I wonder what reason Iíd have not to try one and buy more if it works out.
     Another suggestion was for the Danley SM96.  I appreciate that.  This might be a better solution than the SM100 I originally considered, and they would probably be the most capable of covering much larger areas than anything else proposed, but the list price I have for two the powered versions and a couple of monitors would be the highest of anything proposed by a good margin.  Again, I could spend that but I would have to ask whether my use justifies the expense. The pattern control would certainly be better to a lower frequency. CCD12 monitors and SM96 mains maybe?

Where are you located? 
A demo may not be too difficult to arrange, it all depends on the dealer network and rep in your area.

Please keep in mind when looking for demo's that the CDD series is an install box that is passive, the CDD-LIVE is a portable box with handles and pole mount in addition to rigging fittings and they are self-powered.   

In CDD-LIVE there are only 8", 12", and 15" and there are two CSX-LIVE sub options.

I had suggested that you look at the CDD-LIVE 12's only because of the price range of some of the other speakers that you were considering. 
The CDD-LIVE 8's work very well as a vocal speaker

Lee
Logged
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

Robert Lunceford

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 419
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2017, 03:03:25 am »

I would suggest giving a listen to the Martin CDD-LIVE 12's as both mains and monitors. 
They are self powered and have built in, user configurable processing. 
They are less money than the Meyers that you listed and also less than the Danley SM100 or SM100M (yes, lower cost with included power and DSP while the Danley's are passive).
In my listening and use they provide much more definition than the others (you can distinctly hear each individual guitar, each voice, etc.) in that sense they are not forgiving of a poor mix because they provide great detail and clarity. 

I have not listened side by side with any of the other boxes that you listed.

The CDD series provides a unique approach to HF pattern control.  Look them up https://martin-audio.com/products/series/cdd-live and check out the technology.

Worth a listen if you can. 

Lee

Hi Lee,
The Martin CDD series look very innovative and I would bet they sound as good as you say.
I think one advantage that the Danley's would have is that they use off the shelf drivers that are very easy to obtain.
What would be your estimate in delivery time and cost if you had to order one of the proprietary Martin CDD drivers?
I recall Ivan writing that if you had the correct tools and knew what you were doing, it would take 10 minutes to replace the driver in an SM80.
Logged

Lee Buckalew

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1327
  • St. Louis, MO area
    • Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2017, 08:31:16 am »

Hi Lee,
The Martin CDD series look very innovative and I would bet they sound as good as you say.
I think one advantage that the Danley's would have is that they use off the shelf drivers that are very easy to obtain.
What would be your estimate in delivery time and cost if you had to order one of the proprietary Martin CDD drivers?
I recall Ivan writing that if you had the correct tools and knew what you were doing, it would take 10 minutes to replace the driver in an SM80.

I don't know what delivery time is like as I have not needed one yet.  Any driver components that I have needed from Martin were typically in stock so was just shipping time.
As far as changing the drivers, access is very easy, pop the grill off, remove the metric allen drive machine screws holding in the coaxial driver. 

I have not yet needed to disassemble the HF from the coax on one but have rebuilt a number of Tannoy Dual Concentric and would expect it to be similar.

Unfortunately there is no third party off the shelf driver (at least not LF, I'm not sure what driver the HF uses) for a CDD or CDD-LIVE cabinet as they are a driver designed and patented by Martin Audio to create their unique coverage pattern.  No off the shelf driver can do that. 

There are certainly not a solution for everything and different people prefer different cabinets for different reasons.  They are a unique and excellent tool for what they were designed to do.

Lee
Logged
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

olakunle odebode

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14
Re: vocal PA for small spaces
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2017, 11:18:25 pm »

Iím in the process of determining what I want in a portable PA for use in small spaces with an audience area around 900 square feet indoors or out. Our band is three to four people and when we play these size spaces, the instruments are either acoustic or have their own amplifier. Thus far we have been playing them instrumental and want to add vocals. We need reinforcement for the vocals so they can accompany a drum set and small combo amps. The PA will be used exclusively for the microphones of one or two vocalists. It will not grow in the future. We hire a production company for anything larger.

A speaker with good pattern control is a benefit. Narrower dispersion will help limit reflections in indoor spaces and increase gain before feedback, but our use is essentially near-field and wider dispersion may be fine if they are well controlled. Maybe you can tell me what you think will work better.

Here are some of the options Iím considering now. Iím also open to your ideas. Iím interested to know what reason makes one or another compelling for my use.

Meyer UPJ-1P for house and floor
Danley SM100 for house, one SM100M on the floor
Danley SM60F for house, one SM100M for floor
KV2 EX10 for house and floor
RCFTT-08A for house and TT25-SMA for floor
NEXO PS10 R2 for house and floor with amps and system controllers
L'Acoustics 108P for house and floor
Fulcrum FA28AC for house and floor

We are working musicians. I am not looking for the pinnacle of sonic quality for a gentlemanís hobby.  Our music is profitable and we want to add vocals to these small venues at a high level of quality.  I appreciate the advice that will be pertinent to a fellow professional.



May I start with this : All audio amplification efforts involve some measure of compromise, so the key criteria of import to you are what I'd like to focus on in my response.

1. You need something that will work indoors as well as outdoors - so power is important or rather SPL (especially where devoid of distortion from compression within the speaker, typically when you play lower end speakers for long periods at the top of their loudness range).

2. I make the assumption that simplicity is important, so active speakers with in built amps and active crossovers, would exclude the Danleys.

3. You need something reliable, and particularly clear. I suggest you take a cue from the speakers which are used predominantly in theater environments - where vocal clarity is of the utmost importance.

Anecdotally - for this reason, options I would suggest for FOH include :

a) speakers such as the Meyer UPA-1P - lots of history and generally accepted to represent high quality projection

b) KV2 EX12 (definitely better than the EX10) - would be another good option.

c) Martin Audio CDD Live 12, or if your budget can stretch that far to the CDD Live 15's.

d) Nexo PS 10 or better still the PS 15's for reasons stated below.

Overall 12 inches(or larger) are IMHO the best for loud voice projection. Anything smaller - I find to sound that bit tinny, even for voice. But bear in mind that sooner or later you will also wish to pass some instrumental mixes through these speakers, and larger speakers tend to sound more coherent.

All of the above are 2 way speakers.

IMHO, you may wish to consider some 3 way speakers, which will provide a slightly different texture, somewhat smoother tone, than the 2 way speakers.

3 ways, which, until you are able to add subwoofers to the FOH, will provide an even better compromise in full range sound, in comparison to some of the aforementioned options :

e) Yamaha DSR 215's, which has only one disadvantage - it cannot be mounted on a pole, without significant modification. - Loud - full range - 7 year warranty. Top of the line Yamaha portable speakers - developed in partnership with NEXO, which Yamaha owns shares in. - If too large - consider the Yamaha DSR 115, or DSR 112.

f) QSC KW153 - Loud - full range - 6 year warranty

g) JBL SRX 835 (top of the line portable speaker from JBL) - Loud - full range...


I would be bold to say that the JBL's, QSC and Yamaha's mentioned above are somewhat clones of Meyer equivalents, at lower price points, and you are likely to spend at least twice for anything better sounding, in the Meyer, L'Acoustics, Danley, Martin Audio league. Items e, f, g, represent really good value for the money, at a lower price point - yet give you what I expect to be a more natural sound, utilising three drivers/speakers, instead of 2.

You may need some center fills - to cover the front rows directly in front of the band, to avoid the sound appearing to come from the left and/or right - for those sitting or standing here.

Any of the 12 inch woofer (or larger) options mentioned above or the 12 inch 2 way versions of the 3 way speakers could fulfil the role, of stage monitors.

Typically the same speakers you would choose for center fill, would also be a great choice for stage monitors.

I am not the best person to advise on stage monitors, so suggest you also take a look at L'Acoustics, and similar manufacturers (like Meyer) if you need the highest quality here.

Ultimately every speaker manufacturer voices their speakers to their own taste, so some way to subtly tweak the speaker frequency response to your liking is advised, e.g, EQ - parametric or graphic.

All of the aforementioned speakers will provide an audio quality that is good enough for the room size or outdoor space you described. You choice will be a matter of personal preference, possibly your own audition, and maybe the brand, as well as cost.

All of the aforementioned speakers have sold in very good numbers and hold pride of place in the manufacturers line up of products, and have been on sale(or a similar product - e.g prior versions) for many years (at least 5), with very low anecdotal failure rates. I would not suggest you become a guinea pig for products from Presonus - relative newcomers to the speaker business.

Do let us know what you eventually choose/purchase
Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: vocal PA for small spaces
¬ę Reply #21 on: September 03, 2017, 11:18:25 pm ¬Ľ


Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.08 seconds with 24 queries.