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[John Schalk]

I'm comparing JTR and SRX systems. Typical requirements will be 100' x 100' primary listening area. 100db C slow at mix position (25m). These events are not rock concerts.

I'm looking at (4) Noesis tops over (4) Orbit Shifter Pro subs.

I'm also considering (4) SRX 835p tops over (4) SRX 828sp subs.

There is a review with measurements of the JBL 828sp on the Bassboss Forum where they compare its output to their SSP118.  My saved link for the review doesn't work anymore, but I found it again by searching their forum for "srx828".

And JTR sends their stuff to Data-base for testing.  Here is a link to their detailed report on the OS Pro

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=119

I have not heard either of these subs.  From looking at the max output charts in the two reviews, the JBL has a little more output in the kick region, but the OSPro goes deeper and is louder down low.  The OSPro is 40lbs heavier and the JBL lacks a vertical pole mount socket.  The JBL sub can be had for the cost of an unpowered Orbit Shifter.  If you buy the JBLs, how will you deploy them?  For your outdoor shows, will there be a stage or scaffolding?  That's really the one weakness I see with the 835/828 combo.  Otherwise they offer a lot of bang for the buck.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

I'm working on a business plan for adding equipment to support outdoor festival shows next year. Fortunately, I completed my small rig for far less than I had budgeted do things are moving along faster than I had planned. I am also getting booked more frequently all the time and I'm charging more for shows now.

I'm comparing JTR and SRX systems. Typical requirements will be 100' x 100' primary listening area. 100db C slow at mix position (25m). These events are not rock concerts.

I'm looking at (4) Noesis tops over (4) Orbit Shifter Pro subs. I'm not sure which tops to choose because the specs are the same on the 2TX and 3TX tops, but the 3TX are more expensive. Comparisons are welcome here.

I'm also considering (4) SRX 835p tops over (4) SRX 828sp subs.

On paper, the SRX rig is around $10,000 cheaper and will have about 6db more output than the JTR rig. It seems that JBL may be inflating SPL numbers a bit and Jeff provides real world measurements. The specs are very lacking on the JTR cabinets though. Hence, my questions here.

I think either rig will definitely get the job done. Pros of the JTR rig are light weight, small truck pack, possibly better sound. Pros of the JBL rig are price, Audio Architect software, potential rider friendliness in the future, all active cabinets.

And last but not least, would I be better off going with (2) Sm80 over (4) TH118 with DNA amplification. Even smaller truck pack. Haven't checked pricing yet.

Thanks for any input. I'm also interested in any other suggestions anyone may have.

David, what do you use now?

My background - I have JBL SRX812p and Danley TH118s, among other systems.  FWIW I haven't heard any JTR stuff or the SM80 so I can't comment on output or sound quality.

I appreciate what Eric said about the business aspect of this decision.  Very few lounge-level clients are willing to pay for audio quality beyond a basic level.  A-level touring - sure; street festivals/fairs/parties - not very often.  They may pay for what a system looks like, though.

As to real output requirements - knowing where your spec number comes from is important - 10dB can make as much as a 4X difference in the gear you need to achieve that number.  Keep in mind that the C scale is HEAVILY weighted to sub frequencies; so much so that your mains will hardly affect the number compared to the subs.

I did a modest budget outdoor event with a single pair of SRX812p and a pair of TH118 and covered 100' wide by 150'+ deep at a fairly loud volume and it was fine.  Would I have used a little more if I had it? Maybe, but I fit the whole show including a Honda EU6500 generator in my cargo van, which saved the client maybe 50% of the production cost compared to a larger system with larger rental cost and logistic requirements.

Steve mentioned the difference between the plug and play nature and dry rental ability of the JBL gear compared to the other passive systems.  I find that a significant benefit, and one that gives me a lot of confidence that the really good limiters JBL put in their product will mean that I will get the gear back in working condition.  Danley is working in this direction, but as far as I know doesn't have black-box processing available to idiot-proof their systems, and some measurement and setup are required.

How does this all intersect?  It depends on what you're trying to do, of course.  If the logistics of the SM80/TH118 mean you can get a larger show in a smaller truck, over time that could make up some of the cost difference compared to the SRX stuff.  On the other hand, if you have to raise your show prices to cover the cost of more expensive gear, you may price yourself out of the shows you bought the system for.

My personal opinion is that a pair of SRX812p and a pair of SRX828sp for $6000 is hard to beat in sound quality, output, and ease of use for the money.  The larger SRX835 boxes have a little bit more output (and narrow pattern often requiring 4 boxes vs. 2) have a certain look that is attractive in some situations (they look like a big system ground stacked on subs) and they have more capability than the SRX812s, but they are a lot more stuff to manage.

I like my TH118s, but the set of 4 of them plus amps was in the vicinity of $20,000.  Are they better than SRX828sps?  Yes, and the form factor is great, but you pay for it.

[David Winners]

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,151380.10.html

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,151795.0.html

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,147247.0.html

Thanks Peter.

I was looking at building some PM90 or 60 cabinets but didn't get any response (on another forum) from Max about flat packs or anyone about processing. I don't have the measurement experience to dial them in and would need presets for DSP.

[Chris Grimshaw]

I'm new to audio measurement. I just started taking SPL readings at indoor shows and playing around with REW in the shop. If 100db C-slow takes more rig than I'm looking at, it is an unrealistic number for me in a financial sense. My current position in the market will not allow me to put up a SH46 rig. I would lose my ass on every show. I've seen the same SRX rig on a couple shows and it was loud enough for what I'm doing.

It rather depends on the program material you used to test. If you used something more squashed than Sultans of Swing, the average level (which is what the meter corresponds to when set to "slow") would be increased for the same peak (ie, snare drum hit) level.

If the SRX rig you've mentioned does the job, then fair enough. The other rigs you've mentioned would likely do the job, though I do wonder if a single SM80 per side would keep up with a pair of others in the lower midrange. Not much option to put two side-by-side unless you want really really wide coverage.

Chris

[David Winners]

David, what do you use now?

My background - I have JBL SRX812p and Danley TH118s, among other systems.  FWIW I haven't heard any JTR stuff or the SM80 so I can't comment on output or sound quality.

I appreciate what Eric said about the business aspect of this decision.  Very few lounge-level clients are willing to pay for audio quality beyond a basic level.  A-level touring - sure; street festivals/fairs/parties - not very often.  They may pay for what a system looks like, though.

As to real output requirements - knowing where your spec number comes from is important - 10dB can make as much as a 4X difference in the gear you need to achieve that number.  Keep in mind that the C scale is HEAVILY weighted to sub frequencies; so much so that your mains will hardly affect the number compared to the subs.

I did a modest budget outdoor event with a single pair of SRX812p and a pair of TH118 and covered 100' wide by 150'+ deep at a fairly loud volume and it was fine.  Would I have used a little more if I had it? Maybe, but I fit the whole show including a Honda EU6500 generator in my cargo van, which saved the client maybe 50% of the production cost compared to a larger system with larger rental cost and logistic requirements.

Steve mentioned the difference between the plug and play nature and dry rental ability of the JBL gear compared to the other passive systems.  I find that a significant benefit, and one that gives me a lot of confidence that the really good limiters JBL put in their product will mean that I will get the gear back in working condition.  Danley is working in this direction, but as far as I know doesn't have black-box processing available to idiot-proof their systems, and some measurement and setup are required.

How does this all intersect?  It depends on what you're trying to do, of course.  If the logistics of the SM80/TH118 mean you can get a larger show in a smaller truck, over time that could make up some of the cost difference compared to the SRX stuff.  On the other hand, if you have to raise your show prices to cover the cost of more expensive gear, you may price yourself out of the shows you bought the system for.

My personal opinion is that a pair of SRX812p and a pair of SRX828sp for $6000 is hard to beat in sound quality, output, and ease of use for the money.  The larger SRX835 boxes have a little bit more output (and narrow pattern often requiring 4 boxes vs. 2) have a certain look that is attractive in some situations (they look like a big system ground stacked on subs) and they have more capability than the SRX812s, but they are a lot more stuff to manage.

I like my TH118s, but the set of 4 of them plus amps was in the vicinity of $20,000.  Are they better than SRX828sps?  Yes, and the form factor is great, but you pay for it.

I currently use a pair of QRx 112/75 over EV-SB180 or PV-SP218 subs. I do play some outdoor stuff with this rig but it just barely gets by IMO. My clients are happy but I'm running the rig very hard.

It sounds like the JTR OS is a good value here. Much less than the TH118. I also like the weight, or lack thereof, of the 3TX cabinets. It seems they don't require much processing either. Another big benefit.

I currently have a pair of PLX3402 that I'm not using that would work well in the 3TXs.

I don't currently do any dry rental, but that could be an option in the future.

More later. The day job beckons,

Thanks

[Lance Hallmark]

I have 2 Noesis 3TX and 2 Orbit Shifters. The Noesis are 3 way as compared to the 2 way of the 2X. They are very clear and go very loud. I have not run them even at half their limit even for the House/EDM type shows I mostly do. There are two different rotatable horns available, which increases their usefulness on smaller gigs. The Noesis can also go down to 80hz, which was a deciding factor for me over the SM80 when I bought these. The Orbit Shifters put out a lot of bass, they seem more musical to me than other subs I own/have heard. They are fairly easy to move and transport - easier than the (lighter) Yorkville LS800 I have. My last gig the music was still cohesive & clear 100 yards out, as far away as I could go at this event (I have the 60x90 horn). Build quality is great and the Rhino Liner coating is durable. Service from Jeff is great, he is a man who stands behind his products 100%. I highly recommend JTR and plan on purchasing additional subs soon myself.
You also can't go wrong with Danley, great gear, & amazing sound quality, although a bit higher price point. I think both are a level or two above the JBL line, the bonus is less boxes to move & better quality sound for the higher financial outlay.

(Edited to update Horn config and crossover point).

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

I currently use a pair of QRx 112/75 over EV-SB180 or PV-SP218 subs. I do play some outdoor stuff with this rig but it just barely gets by IMO. My clients are happy but I'm running the rig very hard.

It sounds like the JTR OS is a good value here. Much less than the TH118.

The SRX812p has a little more gas than the QRX 112.  Your bigger upgrade opportunity is probably subs.

Before I get in trouble here, I purchased amps for my TH118s that match the rest of my gear - Crown ITech HD12000s.  I'm sure there are cheaper ways to power them than what I have done. 

[Steve Litcher]

I've been using JTR stuff for the past year, primarily as a solo (or 2-man team) operator. We went from EAW gear to JTR and couldn't be happier.

Benefits to the JTR Noesis 3TX:
- Super versatile and scalable
- Lightweight (3TX weigh 49-pounds, real world)
- Clarity and accuracy is outstanding
- Minimal processing required
- Good match with 1-2 OS per side
- Extremely overbuilt - the crossovers are ridiculous/amazing
- 90/60 or 60/40 horn options; easily changed


General JTR benefits:
- Small truck pack (4 OS, 2 3TX, monitors, amp racks, mic stands, etc all fit in 5x10 trailer)
- Entire system is easily managed by one person (OS casters are perfectly placed so rolling them around is a breeze)
- Unparalleled support from Jeff
- Under-hyped and always over-deliver

I spent a day working with Jeff and taking measurements to fully calibrate our rig (1 3TX over 2 OS per side) and I was amazed by how little processing was required. We process with a dbx VENU360 and there are just a few (3?) narrow dips in the PEQ (I can't recall exactly where, but can look them up). No trickery or magic required to make things sound smooth and clear.

We run our JTR rig with PL380 amplifiers - 1 in stereo for the 4-ohm 3TX and 1 bridged per two of the 8-ohm OS (presents 4-ohm load to PL380).

In this config with 90x60 horns, I ran an event at a large outdoor brewery (screenshot below) with about 1500-1800 in attendance. People were generally contained within the area highlighted by the red line. Stage was located where the green dot sits. I got some benefit of using the building as a reflective surface, for sure.

I walked out 200 feet from the stage and could still hear things crystal clear. The event wasn't meant to be a rock concert, but it did have 2 bands (country/Americana) and folks were there to enjoy the music. At 100-feet from the stage, it was more than enough volume that people were able to dance and feel the music. If my memory serves, I was at around 95dB C-weighted at 100-feet. I had the 3TX raised up so the bases were about 7-feet from the ground.

I also run this rig indoors and literally have it idling along. The efficiency and power is truly amazing. With most small indoor gigs (less than 400 people), I usually run a single OS. If I'm really trying to "wow" people, I'll use 2, but they just loaf along in that scenario.

Regarding covers - I bought the Undercover NYC covers for the 3TX. Probably not necessary as everything is quite protected from Jeff, but better to be safe than sorry. The OS don't need any type of weather-proofing. The Line-X coating is ridiculous on them.

I'd call Jeff and ask him for suggestions on rig sizing, and he'll be more than honest with you about what would work best.

[Mal Brown]

I recently added a passive, semi-vintage ground stack rig into my mix - I was in the same place as David.  Moving up from 4 kw-181's and K12's.  I ended up with 4 EAW LA400 subs.  The difference between those and the 181's was startling.  The low end is so much cleaner... just a 12 in an apparently well designed horn.

Happily the QSC stuff rents well.

I would give the JTR stuff a serious listen...

[Steve Rynbrandt]

What amp/processing packages should I look at for the Danley and JTR rigs? The Crown iTech HD are really expensive. I know you have to pay to play, but dang. I haven't seen pricing on the DNA amps yet.

Can't speak to powering the JTRs, but with our Danley rig we really like the DNA amps (DNA20K4 PROs with Dante in our case). Small engagements get 1 SM80/1 TH118 per side with a single amp powering both sides, while larger engagements get 1 SM80/3 TH118/1 DNA20K4 per side.  Our most common config though is 1 SM80/2 TH118 per side with a single amplifier, often times plugging in to a 20A wall outlet and setting the amp's breaker protection to 16A. It's a fairly straight forward front panel adjustment to switch presets as well as levels to compensate for the number of subs. We rarely use the PC software.

We have not yet run a show on a consumer portable generator power, but we have one coming up in August.

One of our goals is to own enough DNA20K4 amplifiers so that every time a Danley rig goes out there are two amplifiers regardless of the number of subs. I have faith in our gear, but I have more faith in spares.

Prior to owning the DNA amps we used QSC PLX series amplifiers with Driverack processing, which worked fine. We switched for a myriad of reasons, some Danley specific and some not. We wanted to standardize on an amp model to make swapping in/out easier, we wanted more portability ideally with more density, and we desired Dante. On the AV services side of our business we configure and tune systems with several manufacturer's DSPs, but none of us had experience with the Danley DSP, so there was a little apprehension there. Ultimately the DNA amps checked most of our boxes and allowed us to have a commonly branded processing/amplifier/loudspeaker system which maybe is mostly a "feel good" kind of thing, but there are certainly real-world benefits too in regards to the factory presets. I'm not afraid of math and measurement, but I do take comfort in using Danley's limiter presets. And yes, I prefer the way Danley's presets on the DNA amps sound compared to what I had developed on the Driveracks.

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