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Author Topic: Water Electrocution at Put-in-Bay Ohio  (Read 3164 times)

Kevin Graf

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Water Electrocution at Put-in-Bay Ohio
« on: June 18, 2017, 07:17:17 am »

Water Electrocution at Put-in-Bay Ohio

The dog fell into the water and started to struggle, the report says. Currie's father jumped into the water and struggled too. He slipped under the water's surface. His two sons jumped into the water to help, but also struggled, the report says.

 A 19-year-old man died Friday evening after he was shocked from an electrical current in the water at Put-in-Bay, officials say.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/06/19-year-old_boy_dies_from_elec.html
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Ed Hall

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Re: Water Electrocution at Put-in-Bay Ohio
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2017, 07:22:02 pm »

Unfortunately here is another one.

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2017/06/18/nj-girl-11-electrocuted-while-swimming-with-friends/

Would a NCVT used on the dock/lift indicate the problem in a situation like this?
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Water Electrocution at Put-in-Bay Ohio
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2017, 09:02:12 pm »

Unfortunately here is another one.

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2017/06/18/nj-girl-11-electrocuted-while-swimming-with-friends/

Would a NCVT used on the dock/lift indicate the problem in a situation like this?

Yes, absolutely! I've mocked this up and it works perfectly to detect a hot handrail around a dock or pool. It will also find if the water itself was electrified, such as a baptismal pool. I've mocked that up and verified it as well.
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Mark Cadwallader

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Re: Water Electrocution at Put-in-Bay Ohio
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2017, 10:08:46 pm »

I never realized the irony of the way my theater tool belt is set up. The NCVT and its case are right next the the pouch with the nitrile gloves and CPR mask.  Maybe my unconscious recognized it before I put 2+2 together.
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Water Electrocution at Put-in-Bay Ohio
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2017, 08:23:27 pm »

Since this is such an important topic, I wrote an article this morning on ESD (Electric Shock Drowning), had it vetted by David Rifkin (the leading authority on ESD) this afternoon, and submitted it this evening for publication in the RVtravel.com newsletter on Saturday morning to 50K+ readers. Hopefully it will save a few lives.

http://rvtravel.com/beware-of-electric-shock-drowning/
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Lance Rectanus

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Re: Water Electrocution at Put-in-Bay Ohio
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2017, 03:58:07 pm »

re: the Port Clinton incident, various local outlets are reporting that all the shore power points and the boat checked out fine. Seems that somebody's wrong. Ohio DNR Watercraft Division say that they will be announcing the cause this afternoon (Wednesday).
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Water Electrocution at Put-in-Bay Ohio
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2017, 05:26:32 pm »

re: the Port Clinton incident, various local outlets are reporting that all the shore power points and the boat checked out fine. Seems that somebody's wrong. Ohio DNR Watercraft Division say that they will be announcing the cause this afternoon (Wednesday).

The problem is that most electricians are pretty poor at figuring out incorrect wiring. They're taught to wire things one particular way, so they can't think outside the box. Something is obviously wrong somewhere, so it could take some sleuthing to deduce the failure mode.
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Kevin Graf

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Re: Water Electrocution at Put-in-Bay Ohio
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2017, 12:35:29 pm »

Put-in-Bay is on an island in Lake Erie. So an examiner would need to fly or boat in.
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David Allred

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Re: Water Electrocution at Put-in-Bay Ohio
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2017, 12:59:05 pm »

So, was the one that died, electrocuted?   Or did he drown from lack of muscular control due to electrical shock?  Or is it yet to be determined?
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Lance Rectanus

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Re: Water Electrocution at Put-in-Bay Ohio
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2017, 02:19:41 pm »

So, was the one that died, electrocuted?   Or did he drown from lack of muscular control due to electrical shock?  Or is it yet to be determined?

As far as I can tell the cause of death is yet to be determined. The various articles state that the young man reported from the water he was feeling an electrical shock. There were multiple people and one animal in the water, all experiencing some level of this shock. Once the boat was unplugged from the shore power everyone got out of the water safely but the 19 year old.

http://www.cleveland19.com/story/35696277/how-could-the-fatal-put-in-bay-electrocution-happen
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Water Electrocution at Put-in-Bay Ohio
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2017, 04:10:50 pm »

As far as I can tell the cause of death is yet to be determined.

It seems that majority of time from an ESD it's really a drowning due to loss of muscle control. Since there's a voltage gradient in the sater of perhaps 5 volts per foot, if you put your arms out to your side they become a 5 ft wavelength dipole antenna. So that's about 25 volts hand-to-hand. Since your body has around 1K ohm resistance hand-to-hand, that suggests perhaps 25 mA of current. The threshold for loss of muscle control is around 20 mA of current, so at that point all of your muscles are contracting, and your nervous system can't overcome the AC electrical signal. Since you can't move your arms, you just sink below the surface and drown. In most cases of ESD the swimmer never actually reaches the electrified conduit or boat hull. They're usually found maybe 10 to 20 feet from the source of the current.
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David Allred

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Re: Water Electrocution at Put-in-Bay Ohio
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2017, 04:26:13 pm »

It seems that majority of time from an ESD it's really a drowning due to loss of muscle control. Since there's a voltage gradient in the sater of perhaps 5 volts per foot, if you put your arms out to your side they become a 5 ft wavelength dipole antenna. So that's about 25 volts hand-to-hand. Since your body has around 1K ohm resistance hand-to-hand, that suggests perhaps 25 mA of current. The threshold for loss of muscle control is around 20 mA of current, so at that point all of your muscles are contracting, and your nervous system can't overcome the AC electrical signal. Since you can't move your arms, you just sink below the surface and drown. In most cases of ESD the swimmer never actually reaches the electrified conduit or boat hull. They're usually found maybe 10 to 20 feet from the source of the current.

In these situations, does it force an exhale, an inhale, a forced breathe hold scenario, a freeze, or what?  Probably outside of you expertize, but perhaps :-\ ......
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Water Electrocution at Put-in-Bay Ohio
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2017, 07:37:06 pm »

In these situations, does it force an exhale, an inhale, a forced breathe hold scenario, a freeze, or what?  Probably outside of you expertize, but perhaps :-\ ......

Not sure, but here's what I DO know. You'll notice that your hand can clamp down harder on an object then release it. That's because you have more muscles in your hand for grasping than release. Above 20 mA current and every muscle in your body tries to contract and there's a tug of war. That's because your nervous system can't order a muscle to release, only contract. And that's why you can't let go of a hot wire. Now, I'm not sure, but I think you have more muscles compressing your diaphragm. If that's the case, then you'll expel all the air in your lungs if you're being shocked in the water. But I'll ask the guy who's studied ESD a lot more than me.
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Mike Sokol
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Water Electrocution at Put-in-Bay Ohio
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2017, 11:47:57 am »

Here's a good follow-up story to the recent ESD deaths:

http://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/electric-shock-drowning-causes-dangers-in-waters/539927751

The three major groups I'm writing about ESD and Electrocution issues are:  RV owners and campgrounds, Boating consumers and Marinas, and Pro-Sound events and musicians. Even though these don't seem to be related, all of them involve human beings around electricity, and many times water. For example, how many times have you worked on an outside stage right after a quick rain and you're standing in puddles of water while hooking up gear? 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 11:50:05 am by Mike Sokol »
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Mike Sokol
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Re: Water Electrocution at Put-in-Bay Ohio
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2017, 11:47:57 am »


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