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Author Topic: Post Auction/Repack  (Read 5679 times)

Dan Mortensen

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Post Auction/Repack
« on: June 11, 2017, 03:47:33 am »

After the World's Fair here the grounds were turned into City-owned Seattle Center, with multiple performance venues and art spaces. It has a big sound department which now has a wireless mic license.

Two of the SC RF experts and I were talking the other day about our world going forward from the recent reverse auction, and they surprised and dumbfounded me with their description of our current reality.

Although it seemed that what I'd heard regarding the couple of years' grace period meant that we would be able to use over 608MHz gear until that time, what they say it means is that we have that grace period until it is illegal for us to use those frequencies, which is not the same thing.

What it does NOT mean is that the buyers of that spectrum cannot use it; what THAT means is that the new owners can start using it any time they want, starting now. They don't have to send out any warnings, and if they are using it, it is likely that we won't be able to regardless of it not being illegal for us to use.

Is this true from your understanding, too?

Incidentally, the only White Spaces devices in use in the United States (maybe the world?) were at Seattle Center and used on the backside of a free public Wifi network to connect the routers to the Internet connection, eating up 36MHz of bandwidth in the process. Much or all of that bandwidth was within the SC licensed spectrum, and they complained to the FCC about their spectrum being in effect taken away.

It took over 6 months, but those White Spaces devices disappeared and were more than adequately replaced by fiber. This means there are no White Spaces devices now in use anywhere, although the over 700MHz spectrum is in active use for phones.

Both of these situations seem significant. In the one, if correct, we can lose our ability to use mics over 608MHz at any time with no warning. In the other, all the hullabaloo about White Spaces devices was some kind of smokescreen to get something else accomplished, i.e. emptying space over 700MHz formerly used by wireless mics.

Are those reasonable interpretations?
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John Sulek

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Re: Post Auction/Repack
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2017, 10:05:11 am »

After the World's Fair here the grounds were turned into City-owned Seattle Center, with multiple performance venues and art spaces. It has a big sound department which now has a wireless mic license.

Two of the SC RF experts and I were talking the other day about our world going forward from the recent reverse auction, and they surprised and dumbfounded me with their description of our current reality.

Although it seemed that what I'd heard regarding the couple of years' grace period meant that we would be able to use over 608MHz gear until that time, what they say it means is that we have that grace period until it is illegal for us to use those frequencies, which is not the same thing.

What it does NOT mean is that the buyers of that spectrum cannot use it; what THAT means is that the new owners can start using it any time they want, starting now. They don't have to send out any warnings, and if they are using it, it is likely that we won't be able to regardless of it not being illegal for us to use.

Is this true from your understanding, too?

Incidentally, the only White Spaces devices in use in the United States (maybe the world?) were at Seattle Center and used on the backside of a free public Wifi network to connect the routers to the Internet connection, eating up 36MHz of bandwidth in the process. Much or all of that bandwidth was within the SC licensed spectrum, and they complained to the FCC about their spectrum being in effect taken away.

It took over 6 months, but those White Spaces devices disappeared and were more than adequately replaced by fiber. This means there are no White Spaces devices now in use anywhere, although the over 700MHz spectrum is in active use for phones.

Both of these situations seem significant. In the one, if correct, we can lose our ability to use mics over 608MHz at any time with no warning. In the other, all the hullabaloo about White Spaces devices was some kind of smokescreen to get something else accomplished, i.e. emptying space over 700MHz formerly used by wireless mics.

Are those reasonable interpretations?

There is a clip on the Radio Active Designs website ... the CEO of T Mobile promising the roll out of their new 600Mhz services by the end of 2017.
If I paid 8 billion dollars I guess I wouldn't want to explain to the shareholders why we weren't using it right now.
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Scott Helmke

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Re: Post Auction/Repack
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2017, 03:32:49 pm »

What's happening in the next three years is that various markets will have their stations moving around (the repack) in phases. For instance, here in Chicago we're in phases 6 and 8, meaning that the first batch of station moves happens late summer 2019, then the second and final batch happens early 2020. 

As I understand it, currently empty space that has been purchased will be available for the purchasers fairly soon, but for the already-occupied space (where there are still TV stations) they'll have to wait until those TV stations move into their final assignments.  Some of this scheduling is rather vague; the stations that have chosen to give up their channels will have to vacate within three months after having been paid for doing so.

Professional Wireless has a nifty animated map showing the various markets and their repack schedules.
http://www.professionalwireless.com/600-mhz-fcc-auction/

But basically yes - at this point everything above 608MHz is either going to be still occupied by a TV station that will eventually move, or may be in possession of a purchaser hot to start testing and deploying. And when the TV stations leave for lower channels their vacated space will then be in possession of a purchaser.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 03:37:11 pm by Scott Helmke »
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Philip Roberts

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Re: Post Auction/Repack
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2017, 05:49:15 pm »

So two questions on this topic that I'm not clear on:

- when will we know frequency assignments for LPTV stations?
- Can the new licensesees use mis-matched uplink & download bands during the transition period?  Ex t-mobile has licenses in my area for block B-E, existing TV blocks ether the uplink or downlink of each of the 4 blocks. Can T-mobile use the their C and D downlink blocks with their B and E uplink blocks?
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Henry Cohen

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Re: Post Auction/Repack
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2017, 10:31:20 pm »

So two questions on this topic that I'm not clear on:

- when will we know frequency assignments for LPTV stations?

January or February of 2018


Quote
- Can the new licensesees use mis-matched uplink & download bands during the transition period?  Ex t-mobile has licenses in my area for block B-E, existing TV blocks ether the uplink or downlink of each of the 4 blocks. Can T-mobile use the their C and D downlink blocks with their B and E uplink blocks?

As long as an entire downlink block and uplink block are clear, the carrier can begin to offer subscriber services. They do not have to be matched, but the the new services can not cause interference to adjacent full power or class A television services. However, they will use whatever portions of downlink and uplink blocks that are clear to begin equipment testing and propagation studies, if they so choose. They don't need full or matched blocks for those types of initial tests.
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Henry Cohen

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Philip Roberts

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Re: Post Auction/Repack
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2017, 11:07:34 pm »

January or February of 2018


As long as an entire downlink block and uplink block are clear, the carrier can begin to offer subscriber services. They do not have to be matched, but the the new services can not cause interference to adjacent full power or class A television services. However, they will use whatever portions of downlink and uplink blocks that are clear to begin equipment testing and propagation studies, if they so choose. They don't need full or matched blocks for those types of initial tests.

Thanks
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Rick Earl

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Re: Post Auction/Repack
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2017, 08:26:16 am »

January or February of 2018


Is the other post-repack data available correct or proposed?
I have found information like this: http://www.fccinfo.com/CMDProEngine.php?sCurrentService=TV&tabSearchType=Appl&sAppIDNumber=1125498
I'm  wondering it's accuracy as I have a large number of units in the upper 500Mhz range and that is where most of the TV stations in this area seem to be moving after repack.  Trying to plan and budget for the future, which takes time in an academic environment.  Some indoor venues will probably be OK from what I can tell with scans so far (even nearby high powered stations don't seem to penetrate), but our football stadium systems probably wont fare as well.
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David Simpson

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Re: Post Auction/Repack
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2017, 09:07:00 am »

Shure offered a webinar that addresses many of these issues a couple of weeks back. I thought it was worth my time listening to it. Here is a link to it for anyone who might be interested. Lots of good info in it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqyiAYQqFp8&feature=youtu.be

~Dave
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Henry Cohen

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Re: Post Auction/Repack
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2017, 04:03:59 pm »

Quote
Is the other post-repack data available correct or proposed?
I have found information like this: http://www.fccinfo.com/CMDProEngine.php?sCurrentService=TV&tabSearchType=Appl&sAppIDNumber=1125498
I'm  wondering it's accuracy as I have a large number of units in the upper 500Mhz range and that is where most of the TV stations in this area seem to be moving after repack.  Trying to plan and budget for the future, which takes time in an academic environment.  Some indoor venues will probably be OK from what I can tell with scans so far (even nearby high powered stations don't seem to penetrate), but our football stadium systems probably wont fare as well.

Cavell Mertz has a comprehensive FCC database retrieval engine (one of the better layouts IMO), so the information presented by them is actual FCC data; it's as accurate as the FCC records in near real time.
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Henry Cohen

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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Post Auction/Repack
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2017, 03:40:05 pm »


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