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Author Topic: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room  (Read 9334 times)

Tim Hite

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2017, 04:05:27 PM »

. . . I'd heard the internal versions were not the same but lacking an MY card to compare with I had no A/B eval, hence my use of "Dugan-style".

Sounds like they aren't the same, but both still Dugan designed. The QL/CL stuff has been updated by Dugan and Yamaha working together. . .at least if you can believe product marketing videos. . .

https://youtu.be/Qdb8_NKMrzw

Thanks for pointing out the QL, Tim. QL1 is a much better idea than the LS with the Dugan card, if you need a control surface.
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Tim Hite

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2017, 04:17:04 PM »

If Dan blessed it, it is surely OK.
I haven't been able to find a 668?. . .

PS: I'm not pimping any AM these days but absolutely positively don't use a 668 (because as far as I can tell it doesn't exist).

Well, if it doesn't exist then I'm not buying one. . .
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brian maddox

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2017, 10:17:20 AM »

If Dan blessed it, it is surely OK.
I haven't been able to find a 668? (There is a Sound devices 664 that does not appear to have AM)  There is a Sound devices 688 model that claims to have 2 different AM systems. "Dugan Speech System(tm)" and a "mix assist" (whatever that is). Dan Dugan's website mentions that he collaborated with them on the 688 that is using his automixing approach (Which suggests he blessed it too). 


I've chatted with Jon Tatooles from Sound Devices regarding their AM implementation.  The 'Mix Assist' system was SoundDevices original AM implementation and was "dugan style" but not done in collaboration with Dan.  The Dugan Automix that is implemented in the new 688 is indeed a direct and blessed collaboration with Dan Dugan.  The Mix Assist system was also kept on board for those who may have preferred, or were more accustomed to, that method.

The HD668B is a value priced headphones from our friends at SuperLux.  I don't think it comes with any AM capability.  :)

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Mac Kerr

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2017, 10:28:56 AM »

Needs to have automixing.

What are your expectations as to what "automixing" will accomplish?

Mac
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Tim Hite

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2017, 09:46:41 PM »

What are your expectations as to what "automixing" will accomplish?

Mac

I've heard that automixing has magical properties, just like a line array and I've always wanted to work with magic. . .

Seriously, though, need to avoid feedback from local PA and additional remote PA (just outside the room), need a solid broadcast recorder feed, and need to use the prioritizing for the chairman of the meetings. Also, client would like to eliminate the current system's requirement of an operator in place during meetings.

This being a conference room application, it would seem that automixing is ideal for the situation. Had only seen it featured in consoles, so I brought the question to the live board because it's the home of good answers.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2017, 10:15:59 PM »

I've heard that automixing has magical properties, just like a line array and I've always wanted to work with magic. . .

Seriously, though, need to avoid feedback from local PA and additional remote PA (just outside the room), need a solid broadcast recorder feed, and need to use the prioritizing for the chairman of the meetings. Also, client would like to eliminate the current system's requirement of an operator in place during meetings.

This being a conference room application, it would seem that automixing is ideal for the situation. Had only seen it featured in consoles, so I brought the question to the live board because it's the home of good answers.

I have worked with automixers in two scenarios.

1 - In the late 90's we were installing distance learning video conference room systems.  They employed boundary microphones and dedicated auto mixers.  Some had talker buttons on them that would gain that mic up and move the PTZ camera to a preselected spot.  My role was configuring the dedicated network connections back the the data center where the video was mixed in an MCU.  I opened my mouth one day and somehow the customer found out I knew about audio and my scope increased but not my paycheck.  These systems were still too complicated for a teacher or school AV operator to use.  They fell into disuse for this very reason.


2 - Playing with the automixer on the m32.  It works as promised and seems to me to be more intelligent that just gain.  To my ear it also does some sort of companding to decrease the dynamic range and apparent volume of the speaker.  It's more sophisticated than compression.  The voting algorithms also seem sophisticated.

However since these automixers are attached to sophisticated consoles my comment on unskilled operators is the same as #1.

Drawing an analogy to airplanes.  In the hands of a skilled pilot an autopilot is a huge workload management tool.  It let's you take care of other tasks, navigation, communications, engine and passenger management.  Operating single pilot without an autopilot seems impossible by modern standards.  An autopliot will not enable a non-pilot to successfully complete a flight.

If you want repeatable and sustainable results you need a human, to place microphones, instruct the users of the system and to manage the automation.

 
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2017, 10:19:43 PM »

Also, client would like to eliminate the current system's requirement of an operator in place during meetings.

This is not one of the features of the automixers that are built into consoles, or the add on Dugan products. What they do do is clean up the sound by limiting the total gain between mics to 1. If you can't make the insert point for the auto mixer post fader, the operator has additional responsibilities because they have to bypass the automixing for those channels not being used. They are not a panacea, but combined with a smart operator they can improve both GBF and the quality of the broadcast and record feeds.

Mac
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Jordan Wolf

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2017, 10:41:41 PM »

So, with the environment being a conference room, how many people & mics are we talking about?

I've done conferences with 50+ MX412s and successfully used Dugan AM to allow me to pay attention to how it sounds rather than who's up next.

If this is a board room with installed mics and a conference table where you need tele-/video-conferencing capabilities, then the reinforcement aspect is not necessarily as huge. Also, if this IS the case, I'd suggest the Installed Sound forum.


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Tim Hite

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2017, 10:51:56 PM »

This is not one of the features of the automixers that are built into consoles, or the add on Dugan products. . .If you can't make the insert point for the auto mixer post fader, the operator has additional responsibilities . . .can improve both GBF and the quality of the broadcast and record feeds.

Mac

When I spoke to Dan Dugan, he steered me to the Yamaha MRX7-D, which apparently handles all these issues and returns the wanted benefits. Also allows for custom control UI to be delivered for the system via tablet, Crestron, etc. . .rather than a QL series control surface.

I'm currently investigating that device with Yamaha rep and another integrator and have been assured it's the business for this sort of application. Based on my research of the features, it would appear that it's what I need. It may not totally get the operator out of the picture, and there will be a camera operator in the room, as well, but it will alleviate their current situation of having a console in the front of the room. I certainly don't plan on a plug-n-pray install for the client


So, with the environment being a conference room, how many people & mics are we talking about?

. . .

If this is a board room with installed mics and a conference table where you need tele-/video-conferencing capabilities, then the reinforcement aspect is not necessarily as huge. Also, if this IS the case, I'd suggest the Installed Sound forum.

I should have added previously that they want to run 13 conference mics open, because folks have trouble remembering to unmute their mic before speaking. That's including a wireless lectern mic that may be located in front of the PA. Local PA is already installed and is adequate for the job (room could use some additional acoustic treatment). Client also wants an output for overflow area with separate PA which they will rent, as needed. Client is investigating adding a single Skype feed for call-in questions, as well.

I get that automixing isn't a panacea, but it seems like the best tool for managing 13 open mics in a conference room.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2017, 11:07:05 PM »

When I spoke to Dan Dugan, he steered me to the Yamaha MRX7-D, which apparently handles all these issues and returns the wanted benefits. Also allows for custom control UI to be delivered for the system via tablet, Crestron, etc. . .rather than a QL series control surface.

I'm currently investigating that device with Yamaha rep and another integrator and have been assured it's the business for this sort of application. Based on my research of the features, it would appear that it's what I need. It may not totally get the operator out of the picture, and there will be a camera operator in the room, as well, but it will alleviate their current situation of having a console in the front of the room. I certainly don't plan on a plug-n-pray install for the client


I should have added previously that they want to run 13 conference mics open, because folks have trouble remembering to unmute their mic before speaking. That's including a wireless lectern mic that may be located in front of the PA. Local PA is already installed and is adequate for the job (room could use some additional acoustic treatment). Client also wants an output for overflow area with separate PA which they will rent, as needed. Client is investigating adding a single Skype feed for call-in questions, as well.

I get that automixing isn't a panacea, but it seems like the best tool for managing 13 open mics in a conference room.

That is certainly a very expensive way of getting the feature set.  It may be appropriate for this application.  I will let those with experience running the MY series Dugan cards and the Music Group variants comment on the 5k price delta.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2017, 11:07:05 PM »


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