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Author Topic: What is the correct way to do this outdoor event  (Read 7379 times)

Chris Hindle

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Re: What is the correct way to do this outdoor event
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2017, 08:57:28 pm »

Hi,

The event is in Ny city, I am based out of NJ. Unfortunately they do not want to install anything permanent this year. I can however leave the feeder there and just pull it out the day of the event.

BAD idea.
You can't (shouldn't) leave an energized chunk of wire lying around. It MUST be capped, and out of reach of the public. For it's entire length. Local laws MAY be quite a bit more strict .....
Chris.
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Nick Andrews

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Re: What is the correct way to do this outdoor event
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2017, 09:27:16 pm »

BAD idea.
You can't (shouldn't) leave an energized chunk of wire lying around. It MUST be capped, and out of reach of the public. For it's entire length. Local laws MAY be quite a bit more strict .....
Chris.

Hi Chris ,

Yes it would be put away and breakers turned off of course.
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: What is the correct way to do this outdoor event
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2017, 10:45:23 pm »

I'm a licensed electrical contractor.  Installing the proper CS receptacle next to the panel should cost about the cost of the receptacle more than doing a tie in.  Why not install it and be done?  The tie-in should be done by an electrician with the proper gear (arc-flash as need if energized, etc.).  A permanent receptacle is less problematic with code than leaving SO "installed" since it is only suitable for temporary use-typically less than 30 days.

FWIW, I'm doing a similar sized setup for a church event in a few days.  I have the cable, and am qualified to do my own tie-ins,and am well aquainted with the local inspector.  I'm planning on using an inverter genny-mainly becasue dragging 250' of SO around isn't as much fun as it used to be ;) .
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 11:01:18 pm by Stephen Swaffer »
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Nick Andrews

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Re: What is the correct way to do this outdoor event
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2017, 12:27:04 am »

I'm a licensed electrical contractor.  Installing the proper CS receptacle next to the panel should cost about the cost of the receptacle more than doing a tie in.  Why not install it and be done?  The tie-in should be done by an electrician with the proper gear (arc-flash as need if energized, etc.).  A permanent receptacle is less problematic with code than leaving SO "installed" since it is only suitable for temporary use-typically less than 30 days.

FWIW, I'm doing a similar sized setup for a church event in a few days.  I have the cable, and am qualified to do my own tie-ins,and am well aquainted with the local inspector.  I'm planning on using an inverter genny-mainly becasue dragging 250' of SO around isn't as much fun as it used to be ;) .

Thanks for the reply , very much appreciated ! Unfortunately the client was not into the idea of a generator ... I know ....  ;) And for me bringing a generator would make things more difficult logistically as I'd need to bring my larger vehicle to fit everything. I am going to tell them they need to install a cs connector at the panel, I feel more comfortable with this.

..

If I needed to extend the the cable , voltage drop issues aside for a moment , is adding additional feeder length with additional 6/4 with cs connectors a code issue ?
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Rob Spence

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Re: What is the correct way to do this outdoor event
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2017, 12:31:45 am »

Thanks for the reply , very much appreciated ! Unfortunately the client was not into the idea of a generator ... I know ....  ;) And for me bringing a generator would make things more difficult logistically as I'd need to bring my larger vehicle to fit everything. I am going to tell them they need to install a cs connector at the panel, I feel more comfortable with this.

..

If I needed to extend the the cable , voltage drop issues aside for a moment , is adding additional feeder length with additional 6/4 with cs connectors a code issue ?

Well, the AHJ is the definitive source but the NEC does have something to say about how many connections are permitted in a feeder. I don't remember the detail though.

I do gigs where we have a 100' and a 50' to reach though I have never (yet) seen an inspector in 5 years.

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Mark Cadwallader

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Re: What is the correct way to do this outdoor event
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2017, 01:06:53 am »

I recall a previous thread where Tim McC (I think) said that excluding the connector at the source, and excluding the connection at the distro, a maximum of two connections was allowed by the relevant section of code. That means no more that three pieces of cable in a run to the distro.
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: What is the correct way to do this outdoor event
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2017, 02:04:54 am »

The event is in Ny city, I am based out of NJ. Unfortunately they do not want to install anything permanent this year. I can however leave the feeder there and just pull it out the day of the event.

Why are they balking at something permanent? If it's because they're a public agency and this would be considered a "capital expense" that they haven't budgeted for this year, that's kind of understandable (politics... not really understandable, but I understand in a meta sort of way). Many public agencies can spend money on repairs, but they cannot do capital projects outside of the normal budget process which happens only once a year and then is set in stone. Otherwise, they'd have to declare an "emergency," and this would cause auditors to raise their eyebrows if THIS was an "emergency."

So here's how you work it: YOU pay for the install and adjust your fees to the venue accordingly (or just eat it as "the cost of doing business"). The venue may be willing to do it this way, because then it doesn't show up as a capital expense but as part of an already budgeted item: your services for the recurring event.
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Cailen Waddell

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Re: What is the correct way to do this outdoor event
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2017, 08:01:02 am »

Why are they balking at something permanent? If it's because they're a public agency and this would be considered a "capital expense" that they haven't budgeted for this year, that's kind of understandable (politics... not really understandable, but I understand in a meta sort of way). Many public agencies can spend money on repairs, but they cannot do capital projects outside of the normal budget process which happens only once a year and then is set in stone. Otherwise, they'd have to declare an "emergency," and this would cause auditors to raise their eyebrows if THIS was an "emergency."

So here's how you work it: YOU pay for the install and adjust your fees to the venue accordingly (or just eat it as "the cost of doing business"). The venue may be willing to do it this way, because then it doesn't show up as a capital expense but as part of an already budgeted item: your services for the recurring event.

I work for a municipality and this is spot on advice.  While we have forward thinking management, not everyone is so lucky.   Other possibilities i or may not of encountered:

if they install an outlet, they would have to pull a permit and pay those fees and attract that attention or an inspector may become aware of other work that the AHJ didn't know about.

The department might have the budget but the project may not have supplies money just contracted services money.

The electrician is friends with someone in the department and really needs the overtime $

There isn't enough power and the person who made that decision during construction could be made to look bad if any upgrades were done proving that they were wrong

The generator is being avoided because there is clear departmental policy on generator use that would require more resources but the tie in does not.

Yeah... 

So try to find out what's really going on - make friends - and help everyone achieve their goal. 

We just completed a park and streetscape project where we installed 15 50a and 8 L14-30's and a metric shit ton of 20a 5-20 (Edison) around the park and street to accommodate food trucks and stages.  Our mobile system (a quite respectable Danley system with digital consoles, with 2 dozen LED pars, and power for backline) can easily run on a 50a or 2 L14-30...   we are also in the midst of installing shielded cat5E lines so FOH positions don't require cable runs.   And all of this is to say - that when you start considering the size cable ramp needed for ADA compliant crossing of some 6/4 and the time and labor to install, more outlets start to become cheaper.  Keep in mind that these agencies are required to be ADA compliant even in temporary events. 


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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: What is the correct way to do this outdoor event
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2017, 01:17:53 pm »

Why are they balking at something permanent? If it's because they're a public agency and this would be considered a "capital expense" that they haven't budgeted for this year, that's kind of understandable (politics... not really understandable, but I understand in a meta sort of way). Many public agencies can spend money on repairs, but they cannot do capital projects outside of the normal budget process which happens only once a year and then is set in stone. Otherwise, they'd have to declare an "emergency," and this would cause auditors to raise their eyebrows if THIS was an "emergency."

So here's how you work it: YOU pay for the install and adjust your fees to the venue accordingly (or just eat it as "the cost of doing business"). The venue may be willing to do it this way, because then it doesn't show up as a capital expense but as part of an already budgeted item: your services for the recurring event.

P.S. -- somebody may be thinking that installing a permanent outlet would be a capital improvement that must be put out to bid, and there's insufficient time to go through that process before things have to roll. But maybe not -- many municipalities have policies that allow small projects to be done without going through the whole bid process.
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Mike Sokol

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Re: What is the correct way to do this outdoor event
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2017, 02:44:15 pm »

P.S. -- somebody may be thinking that installing a permanent outlet would be a capital improvement that must be put out to bid, and there's insufficient time to go through that process before things have to roll. But maybe not -- many municipalities have policies that allow small projects to be done without going through the whole bid process.
A few of our regular corporate and municipal gigs can put any kind of service on their department credit card up to a certain dollar amount without any bidding process. But go one penny over the threshold $ number and a whole lotta paperwork starts. So find out what that dollar about is and you might be able to make it happen.
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Mike Sokol
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Re: What is the correct way to do this outdoor event
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2017, 02:44:15 pm »


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