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[Peter Morris]

Tom, dont get me wrong, i admire your work and you are one of a very few people in this business that i truly have unreserved respect for.
But you need to understand that most often people on the road are challenged in logistics way and they must compromise.
No need to debate the sound difference between a good point source and a line array. This is a question of practicality and logistics. Two people can easy deploy 16 per side of any line array box you can think of. But they will never be able to deploy your big horns. I can send two guys with a van and they can set 8 line array per side and some subs all by them self.
Especially in Europe logistic is more costly (gas is way more expensive then there) towns are like 15 centuries old and most things are happening in the old part of town. Infrastructure is different, streets way narrower. And so on. When i think harder, i dont think any rental company in 300 miles radius from me has a forklift.

Exactly, you nailed it again. For me in Australia its exactly like this despite our wide streets.

[Mike Pyle]

From a logistical standpoint, I would have been extremely pleased if the SM80F had been designed as a 4' high 100-ish lb box that was flat to 100 hz instead of 215 lbs and flat to 45 Hz.

[Scott Holtzman]

From a logistical standpoint, I would have been extremely pleased if the SM80F had been designed as a 4' high 100-ish lb box that was flat to 100 hz instead of 215 lbs and flat to 45 Hz.

Some of us are playing with horns.  In my copious free time I am messing with these things.  You can read all you want however testing, modifying and retesting gives me context to appreciate this thread.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

[Jeremy Young]

As Ivan himself would say, DON'T ASSUME.
If it's in full space, and measured, and they wanted you to know it, they would have said.
We all take Ivan and "the boys" to be the good guys, and they most certainly are.
But, look at the game they have to play with the rest of the audio world. A world that seems to forget to use the ears when shopping for new gear.
Chris.

For subs, sure I would expect a half space measurement. Even with the EV being marketed as a multi-use cabinet I can understand some monitor duty logic, and at least they disclosed the loading. My assumption was based on one of Ivan's own comments over here:
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,162770.0.html

Reply 42: "The difference is how they are measured.
Since the SM80F is a full range product, it was measured in whole space (speaker and mic up in the air a good bit).
The TH118s are subs-so they are measured in half space.

There is a 6dB difference there."

Not the exact same box, but pretty close for me to feel safe disclosing my assumptions. Anyway, without any real data to share my post was merely anecdotal. 

IIRC the old JBL SR-X bass bins were specified in whole space, always seemed odd to me. 

[Ivan Beaver]

From a logistical standpoint, I would have been extremely pleased if the SM80F had been designed as a 4' high 100-ish lb box that was flat to 100 hz instead of 215 lbs and flat to 45 Hz.

Of course, not all boxes are intended for portable applications.

Remember that the install market is a good bit larger than the portable/tour market.

The SM80F is one of those cabinets.  I agree it is not best for a main PA for a small/medium portable show.

It in intended more as a totally full range install cabinet that in many cases you would not need subs to go with it.

But it works great as a drum fill-sidefill-DJ monitor in which you don't have to lift it (at least not very high).

If you can come to Infocomm, you might find what you are looking for (wink wink nod nod).

[Randy Pence]

Tom, dont get me wrong, i admire your work and you are one of a very few people in this business that i truly have unreserved respect for.
But you need to understand that most often people on the road are challenged in logistics way and they must compromise.
No need to debate the sound difference between a good point source and a line array. This is a question of practicality and logistics. Two people can easy deploy 16 per side of any line array box you can think of. But they will never be able to deploy your big horns. I can send two guys with a van and they can set 8 line array per side and some subs all by them self.
Especially in Europe logistic is more costly (gas is way more expensive then there) towns are like 15 centuries old and most things are happening in the old part of town. Infrastructure is different, streets way narrower. And so on. When i think harder, i dont think any rental company in 300 miles radius from me has a forklift.

I live in Europe and while my city is only 800 years old, we do have plenty of cobblestones and narrow alleys.  It is true that a J1 wouldnt be very friendly to drag off a sprinter truck and roll through a few backyards, but there are plenty of smaller gigs and smaller boxes.  The time I helped out on a hockey arena gig, the providers line array boxes were all stacked 3-4 high on carts.  Back in the day, amp racks weighed hundreds (lbs or kilos, take your pic), as cable trunks still do. I've had to bring racks loaded with 3-4 crown ma5kvz amps up several flights of stairs with just another helper and plywood over the steps. The weight and volume of more array boxes and their subsequent amp and cabling needs negates any argument concerning fuel costs and logistical concerns

[Tom Danley]

I live in Europe and while my city is only 800 years old, we do have plenty of cobblestones and narrow alleys.  It is true that a J1 wouldnt be very friendly to drag off a sprinter truck and roll through a few backyards, but there are plenty of smaller gigs and smaller boxes.  The time I helped out on a hockey arena gig, the providers line array boxes were all stacked 3-4 high on carts.  Back in the day, amp racks weighed hundreds (lbs or kilos, take your pic), as cable trunks still do. I've had to bring racks loaded with 3-4 crown ma5kvz amps up several flights of stairs with just another helper and plywood over the steps. The weight and volume of more array boxes and their subsequent amp and cabling needs negates any argument concerning fuel costs and logistical concerns

Hi Randy
I see your point, America is pretty different so far as “space” and use of wheels to move heavy things but I would still question the perspective, keep in mind the lowest output J box, the J-1 you mentioned is used in a good number of 30,000 to 50,000 seat sports stadiums here, where only one or two are used with no subs.   So if that’s the kind of horse power you would need dragged up a path then yes it’s impractical but also way way more powerful than 6 boxes of any array and all the subs that would go with them to get into the 30’s while flown, with real hair you feel in a stadium.   That 1 box takes the place of a lot of boxes.  A fair comparison would be something a lot smaller, didn't go as low  and more equal in acoustic power.
 
For me and Ivan I guess too, it’s been kind of sad coming from Live sound, Ivan running a sound co and hearing what can be done on a  larger scale than concerts.  Strange for me being a horn  and transducer designer seeing what can be done with drivers and horns, from acoustic levitation and the Servodrive in the old days, the lab sub project here and dozens of horns since, it’s so clear you can make so much more sound with a lot less of everything with proper horns, why not use them to full advantage?
Especially when understanding words or musical articulation is desired, there is a direct well known and undeniable sonic penalty using “more sources” and less directivity seen in the Hopkins Stryker equation.
 
But this is not the way to sell the most boxes, amplifiers and processing per installation job or year or stroke the Church sound guys ego and is also precisely why one see’s big line arrays installed in Churches 60-80 feet deep etc.

This rule applies to live and installed sound when understanding words and / or musical articulation are desirable.

http://www.acousticworx.com/sound%20system%20design%20hopkins%20stryker%20formula.html

The direct field can be improved by
•   Increasing Q
•   Move the listener closer to the source
•   Increase absorption
•   Reduce the number of sources
•   Aim the loudspeakers at the listener

Note that by increasing "N" from 1 to 2 (sources) will also increase the level of the reverberant field by 3dB. Keep the number of loudspeakers to an absolute minimum in difficult acoustic environments.

These large horns have a much higher Q or directivity, spray much much less energy to the sides than large concert arrays which is quite visible as the Initial Time Gap modeled in EASE or other programs.
This single source horn approach uses the absolute minimum number “N” of sources and within each box, where here in addition,  what radiates from each box is as if it had one driver, N=1.
This N=1 single source approach preserves time information also, a single impulse in produces a single direct arrival impulse and not a cascade of impulses reflecting different source to ear distances.

YMMV
Tom.

[Randy Pence]

Hey Tom, the intent of my post was unfortunately misunderstood. Not sure if all the german here is eating away at my mother tongue, lol.  I completely agree with you and as one of your biggest fans in europe and partly responsible for a recent install here.

The differences in space between europe and the states is not that extreme.  Roads might be more narrow here so our tractor trailers might not be as wide, but Mercedes Benz Sprinters, or the equivalent vans from ford and iveco or vw easily move around respectable rigs to anywhere.  Super narrow streets are a nonstarter, because there would never be an event drawing low thousands of people if it is impossible to safely evacuate them, let alone the rest of what goes into doing an event.  Jerichos might be big and heavy, but so are pallets of drinks, and there always seems to be a pallet-jack around.  If anything, the efforts to throw speakers into an american pickup and maybe some sort of small trailer seem clunky in comparison.  Cargo vans, of course, have ramp options, and box trucks have lift gates.  At that point, anything with wheels can get unloaded, the van/truck doesnt care, and given all the other stuff that goes along for the ride, a large horn may not be the factor in fuel economy.

This is the lounge, of course, but even being the lounge, I've never worked any event where hundreds of feet of throw were to be covered by just a 2 person crew.  2 people are supposed to set up trussing, staging, lights, and audio?  Any 2 person gig I've ever done has only been for ground stacks or pole mounted speakers. Sm80s, 96s, 100s, 60s, sh46s, 69s, 50s, etc all fit this category.  Sh-96s are a bit more than I'd like to handle with a partner, but turbosound tms-3s are still in use in europe, and they weigh similar

2 People might not be able to handle SH-96s, but they weigh similar to turbosound tms-3s which are still in use in parts of europe. I've only handled the pg96 with a chain hoist indoors for a 18m/60ft throw, but have seen video where a pair of sh-96hos handle thousands of people outdoors at what I'd volume levels consistent with what might be desired for the OPs gig.  While indoors, I think these pg96 boxes handle techno music at proper volume levels (havent measured myself, but most likely at or above 105dbA) and they still have about 10dB of headroom.

[Marjan Milosevic]

100s of feets of throw for a picnic in the park is way different as 100s of feet throw for a rock concert. And yes, small crew can do it.
Read the OP question carefully.

[Ivan Beaver]

100s of feets of throw for a picnic in the park is way different as 100s of feet throw for a rock concert. And yes, small crew can do it.
Read the OP question carefully.

And you don't need Jerichos for a picnic in a park either-smaller/lighter boxes will do it just fine.

[ProSoundWeb Community]