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Author Topic: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes  (Read 21247 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2017, 06:50:24 pm »



My understanding is that a large horn with a narrower pattern will contain the energy within a smaller area, meaning that it will appear to have more energy at a distance than something that distributes the same energy over a wider area.


My understanding is that a large horn with a narrower pattern will contain the energy within a smaller area, meaning that it will appear to have more energy at a distance than something that distributes the same energy over a wider area.
The problem is that as the pattern gets narrower, the horn MUST get larger in order to maintain control to the same freq.

The rate of falloff (inverse square law) will be the same.

The problem with having different horns "start at the same level" is where do you measure this "starting level"?

In many cases it is NOT at 1m.  Often it is further away for an "effective" acoustic origin.

In some cases you need to be several meters away to have an effective "starting point" to compare with.

As usual, it is not as simple as it might appear to get a correct answer.

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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Ben Blackwell

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Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2017, 11:51:15 pm »

kv2 esd15 (passive/77lb) or ex15 (powered/94lb).  15 three way horn loaded and coax. i have the passive version, but i haven't used it in the situation the op describes.  seems in the category of the kf650 tho.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2017, 07:25:51 am »

The coax will be more coherent.
Yes a coax "has the ability" to be more coherent., HOWEVER, just because it is a coax DOES NOT mean that it haves properly.

There are some models of raw drivers (from respected manufacturers) who have the HF in slightly the wrong place.

So there is no way to get a passive crossover to align the lows and highs.

If it is biamped, yes it would be possible, but passively it is not.

So yes, the sound would come from a single point (a very good thing) but the phase response may not be good, which can affect the sonic quality.
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2017, 07:34:25 am »

Playing Devils Advocate - Are not some speakers louder at distance then others with the same startng SPL?  Or just more coherent sounding?

If we put a SRM450 beside an SM80 playing the same source material at the same SPL at 1 meter, is the SM80 louder at 50 meters, or is it just more coherent and thus sounds louder?
Often people get hung up on the "simple SPL number".

That number is just a measure of the loudness and says NOTHING about the sound quality or clarity.

I have noticed a number of things recently at various events I have attended.

If the system is truly full range with nice deep solid lows and very clean sounding, the FOH guys have tended to run it at a lower level than I would expect for "typical" shows of that type (metal-rap etc).

It was not because they were "running out of system", but rather because they were able to get the sound they wanted, without having to resort to simple SPL to get the "feel".

Many people are of the mindset "If I can't hear the TV, turn it up".

But the problem may not be the actual SPL, but rather the clarity, and the only thing they know is "turn it up".

If the levels are lower (due to a cleaner sound), then the natural compression of your hearing is not as much (so you can enjoy a wider dynamic range of the music), and there is less overall hearing damage, you can communicate better (talk to the girl next to you or bartenders hearing drink orders better).

SPL is NOT the only answer to a "good impactful show" or "being able to hear what is being said".

Just think of a person talking in a noisy environment, they have to raise their voices to be heard.

But if the noise was lower (ie less interactions), then they don't have to talk as loud.

Louder is not always better.  Our hearing starts to "fight back" after a certain point, and there is nothing we can do about it.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Peter Morris

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Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2017, 11:17:26 am »

Yep, a good option.
And maybe the closest thing to the SH46 is Peter Morris's DIY60

...thanks Mark  ;D ... FWIW one DIY90 @ 200ft on windy day with an iPhone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebZ2gzHVXIE&feature=youtu.be
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 01:46:34 am by Peter Morris »
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Jason Raboin

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Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2017, 09:49:30 pm »

None of the proposed solutions get away from the fact that it would be blisteringly loud at the front to be 80db @ 300'. 

If the speaker can get up high, and the front row back a bit and barely on axis, I mean maybe, but these systems going into stadium installs are all flown really far from the nearest person, aren't they?  It's just not the same for a concert system.

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Jason Raboin
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Dave Guilford

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Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2017, 12:05:55 am »

I ground stack everything , and I have a couple high quality palettes , so the top of the SRX725 is approx 9ft up , and thentweeter itself is 8ft up. 

So above heads? Yes. Up high enough? Prob not.  Suggestions on scaff or other ways to get it up for not thousands of dollars?
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2017, 12:26:30 am »

That's where something like an SM80 on a BT-12 tilter up on something like a DT-3800 crank stand comes into play.  Put it 12 feet in the air and tilt appropriately and you can easily cover a couple hundred feet.  I just ordered a couple of those stands for my DSRs from Mike and will use them outdoors in a couple weeks.  Looking forward to seeing how much more carry I can get with them higher up.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2017, 03:29:53 am »

That's where something like an SM80 on a BT-12 tilter up on something like a DT-3800 crank stand comes into play.  Put it 12 feet in the air and tilt appropriately and you can easily cover a couple hundred feet.  I just ordered a couple of those stands for my DSRs from Mike and will use them outdoors in a couple weeks.  Looking forward to seeing how much more carry I can get with them higher up.

I will send some pictures.  Over the next 5 days I am rebuilding some beastly horns I got from an auction at Loud and Clear out of Cinci.  They are sorta EAW clones.  My first pass is with some EV DH-1A's and a 10" EAW clone with an inverted dust cap to clear the phase plug.

I am going to use these on a summer lawn series with STX828's taking care of the low end.  If I have too big a hole in the crossover region I will add some 15"'s to each side.

This is going to be a lesson in system tuning for me.  I don't have crazy expectations.  I am getting them up 6' on scaffold, tight packing two a side.  The stage is on the top of a hill and crests down about 30' to the bottom.  I may have to use some downtilt.

I plan on starting a thread and sharing the entire experience.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Tom Danley

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Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2017, 12:46:30 pm »

None of the proposed solutions get away from the fact that it would be blisteringly loud at the front to be 80db @ 300'. 

If the speaker can get up high, and the front row back a bit and barely on axis, I mean maybe, but these systems going into stadium installs are all flown really far from the nearest person, aren't they?  It's just not the same for a concert system.

Hi
Your thinking of a point source like ripples in a pond, but the more useful form is a loudspeaker that only projects a portion of that sphere, as if it had radiated through a window.   Given that, of more use yet is one that has the same dispersion angle at all frequencies and this is called constant directivity.   
To the degree one has CD behavior, one finds that as you move off axis, the spectral balance or “sound” doesn’t change; only the SPL falls. 

In that situation, one can often find a combination of vertical pattern angle, mounting height and aim angle such that there is VERY little change in SPL (like + - 2dB at Penn state Beaver stadium) or texture over a very large area so “it sounds the same everywhere”. 
 
Strong  consistent Vertical pattern control can let you put a really powerful speaker aiming at the far side just a few 10’s of feet above the fans and not roast them.   
At Kinnick stadium in Iowa, the far seats are 800+ feet from such a speaker system in the scoreboard and at onset of limiting, was hitting 108A dB at 800 feet, yet was very acceptable directly below.

Bottom line to make this work, you need to have consistent pattern control (CD) and predictive design software but the approach works really well for stadiums and large outdoor spaces.
You might contact Ivan off list, he has set up a bunch of stadiums and might have some tips.
Best,
Tom
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Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2017, 12:46:30 pm »


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