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Author Topic: recommendation for WAP  (Read 6389 times)

Andrew Broughton

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Re: recommendation for WAP
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2017, 12:54:50 pm »

I'm sure this has been covered elsewhere, but just in case...

Aside from the TF series, which is a much newer design in terms of networking and user interface, Yamaha consoles w/ a network port pretty much have to be on the same subnet with the computer or iPad running remote control software. That's the basic problem with the Bullet, in that it has only one hardware port which is essentially the same as the "Internet" port on most small wifi routers. We use Netgear N600 wifi routers, and they have four local ports and one Internet port. Guess which port is always covered with a P-Touch label saying "don't use"?

We bought one of those Bullets a couple years back, and it's useful for some things but definitely not controlling Yamaha consoles.
That's why I bought the NanoStation. It has 2 ports and works as a DHCP server too. Seems to me the Bullet is meant to be used with a router.
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Scott Helmke

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Re: recommendation for WAP
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2017, 02:05:04 pm »

That's why I bought the NanoStation. It has 2 ports and works as a DHCP server too. Seems to me the Bullet is meant to be used with a router.

The Bullet is basically meant to send the Internet to a big antenna. We've been asked to do that a couple times, and the Bullet works pretty well in that role.  The difficulty is that Yamaha really didn't design the M7/CL generation consoles to work over a real network, hence the requirement to include a MAC address in the configuration.
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: recommendation for WAP
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2017, 02:09:59 pm »

The Bullet is basically meant to send the Internet to a big antenna. We've been asked to do that a couple times, and the Bullet works pretty well in that role.  The difficulty is that Yamaha really didn't design the M7/CL generation consoles to work over a real network, hence the requirement to include a MAC address in the configuration.
The CL/QL editor and StageMix apps don't require a MAC address.
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-Andy

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Scott Holtzman

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Re: recommendation for WAP
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2017, 05:49:02 pm »

Why is 2.4 out of question? Unless you tell (more work) the AP to separate the 2.4/5 it will put the device on whichever band works best.

5.0 has LESS distance (all else being equal). Using 5.0 is for congested environments.

I did say get the AC variant so that you have the option of 2.4 and 5.0

I also disagree about the router not needed. I'd say many issues comes from trying to get AP's to work is because there isn't a router doing the decision making. Static IP's help even more.

No, I don't know much about networking. But what I do know is what I do WORKS every time (AP + router + device)

It's always a crowded RF environment.  I just consider 2.4 unusable and move on. 

What decision making WRT the router?  I don't understand that statement.  Routers route.  If the wireless only contains 1 network why would you need a router?  Where would it forward packets too. 

Routers don't touch packets that are on the same LAN as a connected interface to the router.  That's why the subnet mask exists.

I suggest you go back to the wonderful network primer here on the site and review basic networking.

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Scott Helmke

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Re: recommendation for WAP
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2017, 02:09:31 pm »

The CL/QL editor and StageMix apps don't require a MAC address.

It's probably still in there somewhere, just not where you have to input it manually.
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: recommendation for WAP
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2017, 02:17:59 pm »

It's probably still in there somewhere, just not where you have to input it manually.
I'm curious as to what this indicates to you. i.e. the difference between that and something that was, as you say, designed to "work over a real network"? I have no problem connecting to my consoles over a network, but I'm sure you mean something else.
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-Andy

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Scott Helmke

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Re: recommendation for WAP
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2017, 06:49:38 pm »

I'm curious as to what this indicates to you. i.e. the difference between that and something that was, as you say, designed to "work over a real network"? I have no problem connecting to my consoles over a network, but I'm sure you mean something else.

The MAC address isn't supposed to matter or need to be visible over a large network (ie things on more than one subnet). That Yamaha made it part of how they control the console means that you're basically stuck with the console and the controller on the same subnet where the MAC can be seen.  I don't think they've changed that issue, I think that they've just finessed the setup in the software to hide the MAC address from the user. The controller software can get the MAC address after it's made contact using the IP address.

There are a lot of different protocols that can be used over Ethernet, but not all of them are "Internet capable".  For whatever reason Yamaha chose to use protocol(s) that are really only usable over a subnet, not the Internet.  That limits the particular hardware that you can use to control a Yamaha console to that which will support those local-only protocols.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: recommendation for WAP
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2017, 10:34:10 am »

Why is 2.4 out of question? Unless you tell (more work) the AP to separate the 2.4/5 it will put the device on whichever band works best.

5.0 has LESS distance (all else being equal). Using 5.0 is for congested environments.

I did say get the AC variant so that you have the option of 2.4 and 5.0

I also disagree about the router not needed. I'd say many issues comes from trying to get AP's to work is because there isn't a router doing the decision making. Static IP's help even more.

No, I don't know much about networking. But what I do know is what I do WORKS every time (AP + router + device)

It's always a crowded RF environment.  I just consider 2.4 unusable and move on. 

What decision making WRT the router?  I don't understand that statement.  Routers route.  If the wireless only contains 1 network why would you need a router?  Where would it forward packets too. 

Routers don't touch packets that are on the same LAN as a connected interface to the router.  That's why the subnet mask exists.

I suggest you go back to the wonderful network primer here on the site and review basic networking.

I wasn't clear, and I should have been.

For the typical end user who just wants something to WORK, let the router/switch/wifi combo unit do ALL of the decision making for you, EXCEPT: static IP the device (mixer) and control (tablet/iPad). This would be the most typical user environment, mixer + store bought router + control device.

In the slightly more desirable (supposedly more range) and advanced (more setup) configuration where an AP is utilized. Do the same as above, except: turn off wifi on router, & ensure AP is static IP.

While sure you can hookup an AP directly to the mixer and hope for things to workout, I really haven't had success without DHCP (router) going (even though static IP's are being used).

Using switch only and assigning static IP's is a fantastic way to slow you down. Do static for the devices that require 100% reliability and be done).

If you have insane amounts of time, sure, by all means ensure that each IP is in a range, use the switch, disable whatever stuff you want on the router, etc.

For the typical user (me/Keith?/lounge level) keeping things simple is usually both less hassle to setup/configure and easier.
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: recommendation for WAP
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2017, 10:45:17 am »

The CL/QL editor and StageMix apps don't require a MAC address.
It's probably still in there somewhere, just not where you have to input it manually.
The MAC address isn't supposed to matter or need to be visible over a large network (ie things on more than one subnet). That Yamaha made it part of how they control the console means that you're basically stuck with the console and the controller on the same subnet where the MAC can be seen.  I don't think they've changed that issue, I think that they've just finessed the setup in the software to hide the MAC address from the user. The controller software can get the MAC address after it's made contact using the IP address.

You don't need to know (or use) the console's MAC address to communicate with the CL/QL. My software connects just fine only knowing the console's IP address.

Quote
There are a lot of different protocols that can be used over Ethernet, but not all of them are "Internet capable".  For whatever reason Yamaha chose to use protocol(s) that are really only usable over a subnet, not the Internet.  That limits the particular hardware that you can use to control a Yamaha console to that which will support those local-only protocols.

I've never tried communicating with a Yamaha desk over the internet, but it would be an interesting experiment. I would expect it would work with the CL/QL.
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-Andy

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Scott Helmke

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Re: recommendation for WAP
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2017, 01:05:39 pm »

You don't need to know (or use) the console's MAC address to communicate with the CL/QL. My software connects just fine only knowing the console's IP address.

Software: Hi, whoever is on IP address 192.168.0.128, are you a CL5?
CL5: Yes, I am!  Here's my MAC address so we can really talk to each other, AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF.
Software: Thanks, glad to get those boring formalities out of the way.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: recommendation for WAP
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2017, 01:05:39 pm »


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