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Author Topic: Amplifier questions.....  (Read 10483 times)

TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2017, 05:05:24 pm »

I agree to a certain extent, however (correct me if I'm wrong), with an active system (2 monitors, 2 mains with 2 subs), wouldn't that system require more power vs a passive system with just two amps? My other concerns would be outlet distribution for all of these units, questionable building electrical integrity and the added costs/routing for extension cords espcially outdoors.
Jesse, there isn't a material power consumption difference between active and passive.  Amps only draw what they are asked to produce - just because a "2000 watt" speaker says so on the marketing material doesn't mean it will draw that from the wall.  As it relates to "questionable building integrity", that issue exists either way.

There are people who prefer passive for cable management reasons, but in recent years the sound quality difference between a high-performance active system like the JBL SRX800P series and anything passive is so significant it outweighs (IMO) any small logistical disadvantages, not that there are that many.  And you don't have to carry around an amp rack.

The SRX800p series is cheaper, sounds MUCH better, and is much harder to destroy than the SRX passive series + generic amp.  If you already own amps it may make sense, but if you're starting from scratch, the performance difference of the self-powered speakers is not subtle.  The fact that the SRX-P series is cheaper just makes it silly to not go that way.
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2017, 05:31:19 pm »

Think of it this way, with a powered box you have the ideal coupling of amp and speaker.  Potentially the best efficiency.  Not that 25-50 of decent speaker cable dramatically affects anything but from an academic standpoint, powered boxes have greater inherent power efficiency.

The reality is that modern class D amps (either in racks or built into speaker cabinets) produce a great deal of sound for the amount of juice they pull out of the wall.  While the spec's might imply one thing, many of us are getting away with plugging a couple of 1500W (by the marketing literature) tops over 4+ 18" subs into a single 20A outlet.
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Michael Storey

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2017, 05:43:44 pm »

If you find yourself constantly clipping the XTI 4002, you need to turn it down.  A larger amp will make virtually no usable output improvement (doubling amplifier power only adds a theoretical 3dB, which is probably less due to power compression), and will significantly increase your risk of damaging your speakers.

+1 to self-powered SRX 800p series boxes instead of any passive+amp combo.

I agree, if you're constantly clipping ANY amp then you need to turn down.

But for arguments sake, if a larger amp makes virtually no impact as you say, should he just return the XTI 4002 and settle with a XTI 1002 and save some coin?

I guess what I'm saying is, being familiar with the equipment in question, I'm confident that by powering 2/ side STX 812m with a XTI 4002 he'd be leaving performance/headroom on the table. If he's doing small venue's and clubs (like I assume), then its a moot point. If he happens to be doing med-large outdoor shows with screamo bands or deaf rappers, he'd probably be clipping that XTI 4002 pretty often, and the XTI 6002 would probably be a better option. It's up to him to determine if the XTI 4002 is good enough.

This is all assuming that he follows the general ideology (as I do) that clip lights are bad, especially on full-range systems.

PS. +10000 to the self powered SRX 818SP recommendations. But he's made it clear that he prefers a passive setup and that's his prerogative, and his money. Hence, I didn't bother.

PPS. IMO the XTI feels closer to an iTech than its XTI brethren.
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Jesse Gregorio

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2017, 05:52:54 pm »

Jesse, there isn't a material power consumption difference between active and passive.  Amps only draw what they are asked to produce - just because a "2000 watt" speaker says so on the marketing material doesn't mean it will draw that from the wall.  As it relates to "questionable building integrity", that issue exists either way.

There are people who prefer passive for cable management reasons, but in recent years the sound quality difference between a high-performance active system like the JBL SRX800P series and anything passive is so significant it outweighs (IMO) any small logistical disadvantages, not that there are that many.  And you don't have to carry around an amp rack.

The SRX800p series is cheaper, sounds MUCH better, and is much harder to destroy than the SRX passive series + generic amp.  If you already own amps it may make sense, but if you're starting from scratch, the performance difference of the self-powered speakers is not subtle.  The fact that the SRX-P series is cheaper just makes it silly to not go that way.

Tom,

Although amplifiers (whether in a passive or active application) draw what they are asked to produce, would a totally active system (2 mains, 2 monitors, 2 subs for example) demand be too high for a 15A circuit? A lot of venues that I'm at have only 15A circuits. Up to now, that's all I've seen. I'm running what I have through a Furman P1800 AR which suits what I need. I do not see a need at this point and time to switch to powered speakers even though I've thought about it numerous times. I do agree that the SRX812p is a good speaker but I like the wedge/lower profile size etc. of the STX 812m because it suits my needs at this point in time. My ORIGNAL question has already been answered without need for further discussion on whether I should buy passive or powered speakers. Everyone has their own opinion and I'm glad to hear it but I also have my own which counts the most to me. I'm not suggesting everyone buy passive speakers for reasons x,y and z so I would appreciate the same in return.

I have already purchased my equipment based on my research/needs/preference and that should be respected.
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Jesse Gregorio

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2017, 06:00:32 pm »

I agree, if you're constantly clipping ANY amp then you need to turn down.

But for arguments sake, if a larger amp makes virtually no impact as you say, should he just return the XTI 4002 and settle with a XTI 1002 and save some coin?

I guess what I'm saying is, being familiar with the equipment in question, I'm confident that by powering 2/ side STX 812m with a XTI 4002 he'd be leaving performance/headroom on the table. If he's doing small venue's and clubs (like I assume), then its a moot point. If he happens to be doing med-large outdoor shows with screamo bands or deaf rappers, he'd probably be clipping that XTI 4002 pretty often, and the XTI 6002 would probably be a better option. It's up to him to determine if the XTI 4002 is good enough.

This is all assuming that he follows the general ideology (as I do) that clip lights are bad, especially on full-range systems.

PS. +10000 to the self powered SRX 818SP recommendations. But he's made it clear that he prefers a passive setup and that's his prerogative, and his money. Hence, I didn't bother.

PPS. IMO the XTI feels closer to an iTech than its XTI brethren.

Again, Michael,

Thank you for understanding/answering my ORIGINAL question. That is why I came here.

PS - I do understand that clip lights are bad and will try to avoid them at all costs.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2017, 06:24:51 pm »

Quote

Everyone has their own opinion and I'm glad to hear it but I also have my own which counts the most to me. I'm not suggesting everyone buy passive speakers for reasons x,y and z so I would appreciate the same in return.

I have already purchased my equipment based on my research/needs/preference and that should be respected.
Jesse, you started off this thread saying "I bought all this stuff, is it a good system?"  And "I'm confused about a bunch of stuff."  That's a pretty interesting way to start out. Now you've apparently convinced yourself that you did indeed buy a good system that is perfect for your needs, though you still seem to misunderstand some of the questions you initially asked.

The quantity of self-powered speakers you mention will be fine on one circuit.

I'm sorry you didn't hear what you wanted to hear, but I'm glad you have decided that you are happy. Your gear will be fine, just keep the amp out of clipping.

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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2017, 06:31:10 pm »

Your original question is kind of moot after you told us why you were headed in a particular direction.  The concrete reason is money, the emotional reason is about a perceived lack of control over the system.

I've been "that guy" with the control issues and after 35 years in this industry I'm plenty happy to let JBL/Crown/D&B/l'Acoustic/RCF do the heavy lifting/thinking for me.  Seriously.

It's easier to make good sound that it's ever been.  It's cheaper to buy "design family" loudspeaker systems than to configure your own that easily outperform equipment designed 10 years ago or even less.

I'm not a powered speaker pimp, in fact the company I manage has less than 10% of our system investments in powered speaker systems, but that's because we had a half million $$ invested in legacy ways of doing things and my boss wasn't keen on having to respend that $500k.

At your level of expertise and lacking a bunch of older gear you need to keep making money I think it's foolish to continue on the path you've begun.

I know that wasn't your question (which I believe I contributed pertinent answers to), but you are not required to make the mistakes of others if you can learn from our experiences.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 09:43:05 pm by Tim McCulloch »
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Jesse Gregorio

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2017, 07:10:11 pm »


I recently purchased (4) JBL STX 812m monitors and a Crown XTI 4002 to power them. I was planning on using the XTI for both mains and monitors. Would this be a good setup? I've searched the internet high and low to see if anyone was running something similar with little or no result. I know that I am 'underpowering' the 812's, but I've also read numerous forums on under/overpowering speakers with no real decisive results on the subject. In the end, I was planning on purchasing a used iTech 4000 to power the 812's and using the 4002 for sub duty.


That was my main/original question. Basically I was asking if it would be ok if I 'underpowered'  the STX 812m's with the XTI4002 which maybe I should've asked originally to lessen the confusion. After asking my question, everyone started in with powered speakers this and that which wasn't relevant to what I was asking. That in turn led me explaining why I chose passive over powered. As for this statement.....

Jesse, you started off this thread saying "I bought all this stuff, is it a good system?"  And "I'm confused about a bunch of stuff."  That's a pretty interesting way to start out. Now you've apparently convinced yourself that you did indeed buy a good system that is perfect for your needs, though you still seem to misunderstand some of the questions you initially asked.

....this is not accurate. With no convincing needed, I knew I bought a good system for my needs or I wouldn't have bought it at all. I thoroughly research what I buy beforehand by reading forums, reviews, listening to professional sound engineer advice and reading whatever other information that is easily available. As for misunderstanding the initial questions that I asked, I just had a simple question of whether the running the speakers underpowered would be an issue.

Michael had the best replies which answered my original question(s) completely.

Again, that's all I needed with no disrespect intended. I sincerely thank you all again for all of your input.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 07:15:44 pm by Jesse Gregorio »
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Michael Storey

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2017, 07:39:31 pm »

Again, that's all I needed with no disrespect intended. I sincerely thank you all again for all of your input.

Stick around. Threads occasionally get weird, but everyone means well.
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Jesse Gregorio

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2017, 08:04:50 pm »

Stick around. Threads occasionally get weird, but everyone means well.


Most definately :)
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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2017, 08:04:50 pm »


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