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Author Topic: Amplifier questions.....  (Read 10385 times)

Jesse Gregorio

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2017, 01:26:50 pm »

With respect:-
One of the reasons powered speakers have become so popular is because of folks like yourself who have limited knowledge or experience on how to deploy a PA system successfully and  to its full potential.
Powered speaker systems take most of the guess work out of the equation because the company has done pretty much everything for you.
I used to run a passive SRX system and I got great results but only because I researched and researched how to set DSP, which amps, wiring configurations I should use and I took advice from the knowledgeable folks on here.
My first powered system however -JBL PRX - took no thinking about - just plug and play and VOILA - great results.
Makes it easy when it comes to monitors too... just add as many as you want according to the amount of mixes available from the mixer - OR daisy chain if sharing mixes.

There are still a lot of folks at LAB level who prefer passive systems for some very good reasons but there is a lot more to getting a passive system 'right' than a powered one.

How about you give us some specifics about why you believe that a passive box would be better. You will likely be carrying less weight, the boxes have better protection built in and the manufacturer can more precisely  setup the DSP to match the box.

The only advantage I can think of in passive is that there isn't a single point of failure but having multiple points of failure doesn't mean that its less likely to fail.

In your situation you are running both mains from one amp channel so it remains a single point of failure.

I can totally see what advantage powered speakers have as a simple plug and play solution which also seems to be the leading trend. Believe me, I was one click away from buying a totally powered system but at the last minute decided against it. Like you, with NO disrespect intended, the whole reason why I'm posting here is get some expertise on if what I have as far as amp wattage to speaker requirement will work or not for my current situation and not whether I should buy powered speakers. Although powered speakers now days have pretty much everything built in, I'd rather be able to control everything from one point vs. multiple points since I sometimes have to play bass as well as run sound. It would be hard for me to make adjustments to a particular powered speaker in the middle of a song or to run out and make an adjustment in between songs. Granted that there are wi-fi speakers such as the PRX/SRX?800 series I'd rather control everything from my mixer alone.

To me, whether to go passive or powered is almost like picking which car to drive to go somewhere. In the end the goal is the same, just different ways on getting there based on preference or needs. To reiterate, with NO disrespect intended, what can I avail of with my situation in my original post? I'm pretty much looking to keep my setup.

Thanks again for your input.
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Michael Storey

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2017, 01:32:23 pm »

At the end of the day, only you and your clients/bandmates can decide if the XTI 4002 powered STX 812's on monitor duty will work for you. I'd say you're slightly underpowered, but if you're happy with the volume level you achieve with that combo, then being a bit underpowered becomes irrelevant. If you find yourself constantly clipping the XTI 4002, you need a bit more amp. STX presets are available for the XTI series.

The XTI 6002 is a whole different beast compared to its XTI siblings. I found it to a be a solid subwoofer amp, and would be a great match for the SRX 818s, or your STX 812's for that matter. I don't see SRX 818s presets readily available for the XTI, but i'm sure they exist. Probably will require a call to JBL.

For the reasons Tim explained, I would not purchase a used IT4000. I do see a few second hand IT5000HD's out there for not much more money than a new XTI 6002, and presets are available for the SRX line.
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Dave Guilford

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2017, 01:57:56 pm »

Wow what a strange thread. 

Itech on subs.  No doubt.  Itech on any srx/stx will be very high quality low end.  Certainly even better than a powered srx818/828.

I've been through 4 used itech amps any never had a problem.  One has 12k hours on it, and one has 4K hours.  The rest between that. 

I'd also say that srx700 beats the srx800 and stx series. 

The dude wants to run monitors all on one mix?   Weird but ok.

I've bridged my xti6002 amps into srx728 and it gets plenty loud.  But the sound quality is considerably better when I bridge my itech 4000 into one.  Difference of 2000 watts - headroom mostly - but I way prefer the IT4k over the xti60002 on subs.

Good luck !
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Debbie Dunkley

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2017, 02:01:31 pm »

I can totally see what advantage powered speakers have as a simple plug and play solution which also seems to be the leading trend. Believe me, I was one click away from buying a totally powered system but at the last minute decided against it. Like you, with NO disrespect intended, the whole reason why I'm posting here is get some expertise on if what I have as far as amp wattage to speaker requirement will work or not for my current situation and not whether I should buy powered speakers. Although powered speakers now days have pretty much everything built in, I'd rather be able to control everything from one point vs. multiple points since I sometimes have to play bass as well as run sound. It would be hard for me to make adjustments to a particular powered speaker in the middle of a song or to run out and make an adjustment in between songs. Granted that there are wi-fi speakers such as the PRX/SRX?800 series I'd rather control everything from my mixer alone.

To me, whether to go passive or powered is almost like picking which car to drive to go somewhere. In the end the goal is the same, just different ways on getting there based on preference or needs. To reiterate, with NO disrespect intended, what can I avail of with my situation in my original post? I'm pretty much looking to keep my setup.

Thanks again for your input.

I understand completely.
However,  my post - although covering FOH and monitor powered options for the sake of giving a hopefully informative opinion for anyone reading my post -  was also about agreeing with Tim that getting powered versions of the SRX subs would still benefit you  for all the reasons mentioned here. Amps included, nothing else to think about and cheaper overall.

One more thing , you mentioned not being able to make adjustments to powered speakers as easily during or in between songs. Rarely have I ever had to make a change to powered speaker once up and running. Once sound checked, and my levels are set on the FOH speakers, all my adjustments happen as the console.
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Steve Garris

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2017, 02:14:01 pm »

I can totally see what advantage powered speakers have as a simple plug and play solution which also seems to be the leading trend. Believe me, I was one click away from buying a totally powered system but at the last minute decided against it. Like you, with NO disrespect intended, the whole reason why I'm posting here is get some expertise on if what I have as far as amp wattage to speaker requirement will work or not for my current situation and not whether I should buy powered speakers. Although powered speakers now days have pretty much everything built in, I'd rather be able to control everything from one point vs. multiple points since I sometimes have to play bass as well as run sound. It would be hard for me to make adjustments to a particular powered speaker in the middle of a song or to run out and make an adjustment in between songs. Granted that there are wi-fi speakers such as the PRX/SRX?800 series I'd rather control everything from my mixer alone.

To me, whether to go passive or powered is almost like picking which car to drive to go somewhere. In the end the goal is the same, just different ways on getting there based on preference or needs. To reiterate, with NO disrespect intended, what can I avail of with my situation in my original post? I'm pretty much looking to keep my setup.

Thanks again for your input.

You've got some great monitors with those STX812's. I would power them alone with your amp, and there's nothing wrong with having a single mix if that works for you.

Regarding the powered mains, as Debbie stated there would never be a time when you would need to control a speaker during a gig. These powered boxes are so well balanced, you will literally plug them in and go. Your main EQ, if you have one, will likely be flat. That's how good the new powered boxes sound. I have an SRX8xxp system, and once you find the initial sub to top level settings, you are done for good. You're getting great advise here on the powered vs passive boxes.
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Jesse Gregorio

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2017, 02:23:39 pm »

Debbie,
I appreciate your input. Thank you very much.

Steve,
I also appreciate and thank you for your input.

Dave,
I can totally agree that this thread has been a curvy road at best with a lot of varying replies. If it is necessary to upgrade to a used Itech or a new 6002 then I'll bite the bullet on it. But with Michaels reply as confirmation, I'll stick with the 4002. Kinda sketchy with the used Itech 4000 deal. If what I have can work, I'll stick with it for now.

As far as subs, I'm waiting to replenish my funds before going further at this point as other financial concerns have arisen.

I know that running monitors on one mix is somewhat uncommon, but that is what most of the performers I deal with are used to being that the groups are commonly no larger than a quartet.

Thank you for your input.

[/quote]
At the end of the day, only you and your clients/bandmates can decide if the XTI 4002 powered STX 812's on monitor duty will work for you. I'd say you're slightly underpowered, but if you're happy with the volume level you achieve with that combo, then being a bit underpowered becomes irrelevant. If you find yourself constantly clipping the XTI 4002, you need a bit more amp. STX presets are available for the XTI series.

The XTI 6002 is a whole different beast compared to its XTI siblings. I found it to a be a solid subwoofer amp, and would be a great match for the SRX 818s, or your STX 812's for that matter. I don't see SRX 818s presets readily available for the XTI, but i'm sure they exist. Probably will require a call to JBL.

For the reasons Tim explained, I would not purchase a used IT4000. I do see a few second hand IT5000HD's out there for not much more money than a new XTI 6002, and presets are available for the SRX line.

Michael,

Thank you very, very much. THAT, was basically the answer I was looking for.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 02:36:45 pm by Jesse Gregorio »
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2017, 02:39:00 pm »

If you find yourself constantly clipping the XTI 4002, you need a bit more amp. STX presets are available for the XTI series.
If you find yourself constantly clipping the XTI 4002, you need to turn it down.  A larger amp will make virtually no usable output improvement (doubling amplifier power only adds a theoretical 3dB, which is probably less due to power compression), and will significantly increase your risk of damaging your speakers.

+1 to self-powered SRX 800p series boxes instead of any passive+amp combo.
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Rob Spence

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2017, 04:35:38 pm »

Just to mention a point from much earlier...
To the OP; you mentioned power availability in the venues. Passive with amp is not really different from active for the same volume levels.
I would not make my choice based on that.

My bar rig mains speakers are all active. No fussing to get a big power source for the amp rack.


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Jamin Lynch

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2017, 04:41:20 pm »

There are parts in original I-Techs that contain the rare element "Unobtanium".  Factory repairs are expensive and if the wrong thing is broke, irreparable.  You might get 20 years out of one or you might get 6 months.

I've powered mains from one side of an amp and a single monitor mix on 2 wedges from the other side, without incident but this was 30 years ago on a Peavey CS800.  I suspect you could do it with the XTi *002 series without technical issue.  Here's the limitation:  I don't think there is a JBL preset for the XTi that has mains settings for the left channel and monitor settings for the right channel (or vice-versa).  You might be able to "roll your own" but I suspect that's more than you're comfortable with at this time.

The original *000 Xti didn't have a great reputation as a subwoofer amp but whatever caused that was fixed in the *002 series.  We power SRX728 with bridged XTi6002 and have destroyed a couple of 18s, we've since gone back to stereo mode, saved an amplifier and ignore the occasional clip light.

Now, about single 18s:  seems like a good idea but if you do some reading here in the Lounge you'll find several folks who started out that way and ended up going with 2x18 subs.  If you're moving your gear in a car or SUV you're absolved, but if you have a van or trailer and the venues you play have the room, go 2x18.  Really.

That all said I think you should be looking at the SRX828p for a subwoofer.  A pair of STX818 MAPs for $2400 and a used IT4k will be $1000, probably.  You can buy a pair of SRX828p for just a little more (B Stock or store demo) and not worry about repairing an ITech.  Paying MAP, the 828p is <$2,000, or less than you'd pay for 2 STX818 without power.

Unobtanium.....LOL ;)
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Jesse Gregorio

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2017, 04:57:47 pm »

Just to mention a point from much earlier...
To the OP; you mentioned power availability in the venues. Passive with amp is not really different from active for the same volume levels.
I would not make my choice based on that.

My bar rig mains speakers are all active. No fussing to get a big power source for the amp rack.

I agree to a certain extent, however (correct me if I'm wrong), with an active system (2 monitors, 2 mains with 2 subs), wouldn't that system require more power vs a passive system with just two amps? My other concerns would be outlet distribution for all of these units, questionable building electrical integrity and the added costs/routing for extension cords espcially outdoors.

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Re: Amplifier questions.....
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2017, 04:57:47 pm »


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