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Author Topic: 2 way radios  (Read 13984 times)

Russell Ault

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Re: 2 way radios
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2018, 11:32:09 pm »

I mistakenly bought a Kenwood TH-D72, thinking it would be what I wanted. While it's a fine radio, for legal reasons, I believe, it doesn't allow ANY frequency to be selected. The Chinese radios have no such limitations. There's millions of them, you'd think there'd be one brand that would want to stand out from the rest by building a bit of quality into the product...

I'd be surprised if it's for legal reasons (radios for the amateur service don't require certification because licensed amateurs are solely responsible for insuring that their radios are operating within the regulations); my guess is that using a relatively limited TX frequency range simplifies the hardware design (without making the radio any less useful to its intended market).

As I understand it, though, transmitting with a user-programmable radio (Chinese or otherwise) outside of the amateur service is illegal basically everywhere, even if you're using it in way that would otherwise comply with some other licensed usage.

-Russ
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: 2 way radios
« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2018, 12:39:29 pm »

I'd be surprised if it's for legal reasons (radios for the amateur service don't require certification because licensed amateurs are solely responsible for insuring that their radios are operating within the regulations); my guess is that using a relatively limited TX frequency range simplifies the hardware design (without making the radio any less useful to its intended market).
It's not that. It specifically blocks out certain ranges while operating above and below those ranges. I was told it was for DOC/FCC certification/licensing/laws or somesuch.

Quote
As I understand it, though, transmitting with a user-programmable radio (Chinese or otherwise) outside of the amateur service is illegal basically everywhere, even if you're using it in way that would otherwise comply with some other licensed usage.
Of course. But there are millions of radios that do.
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-Andy

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Henry Cohen

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Re: 2 way radios
« Reply #52 on: September 04, 2018, 10:07:13 pm »

But there are millions of radios that do.

And if they do allow front panel programming of frequencies in any band other than Amateur, they are not FCC certified, are non-compliant, illegal to sell in the US and illegal to use, even if you did have a license for the actual frequency(ies) on which you're operating. Because they are not legal, not enough people will pay top dollar for a Motorola/Kenwood/Hytera/Tait quality product to make it profitable to manufacture, even given Chinese labor costs.
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Henry Cohen

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Andrew Broughton

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Re: 2 way radios
« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2018, 07:25:14 pm »

And if they do allow front panel programming of frequencies in any band other than Amateur, they are not FCC certified, are non-compliant, illegal to sell in the US and illegal to use, even if you did have a license for the actual frequency(ies) on which you're operating. Because they are not legal, not enough people will pay top dollar for a Motorola/Kenwood/Hytera/Tait quality product to make it profitable to manufacture, even given Chinese labor costs.
Are you asserting that every vendor that sells a Baofeng or Retevis or any of the dozens of other Chinese brands that allow any frequency to be entered are breaking the law?
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-Andy

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Henry Cohen

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Re: 2 way radios
« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2018, 10:33:52 pm »

Are you asserting that every vendor that sells a Baofeng or Retevis or any of the dozens of other Chinese brands that allow any frequency to be entered are breaking the law?

Yes.

47CFR 2.803    Marketing of radio frequency devices prior to equipment authorization.
      (a) Marketing, as used in this section, includes sale or lease, or offering for sale or lease, including advertising for sale or lease, or importation, shipment, or distribution for the purpose of selling or leasing or offering for sale or lease.
      (b) General rule. No person may market a radio frequency device unless:
      (1) For devices subject to authorization under certification, the device has been authorized in accordance with the rules in subpart J of this chapter and is properly identified and labeled as required by  2.925 and other relevant sections in this chapter; or
      (2) For devices subject to authorization under verification or Declaration of Conformity in accordance with the rules in subpart J of this chapter, the device complies with all applicable technical, labeling, identification and administrative requirements; or
      (3) For devices that do not require a grant of equipment authorization under subpart J of this chapter but must comply with the specified technical standards prior to use, the device complies with all applicable, technical, labeling, identification and administrative requirements.
      (c) Exceptions. The following marketing activities are permitted prior to equipment authorization:
      (1) Activities under market trials conducted pursuant to subpart H of part 5.
      (2) Limited marketing is permitted, as described in the following text, for devices that could be authorized under the current rules; could be authorized under waivers of such rules that are in effect at the time of marketing; or could be authorized under rules that have been adopted by the Commission but that have not yet become effective. These devices may not be operated unless permitted by  2.805.
      (i) Conditional sales contracts (including agreements to produce new devices manufactured in accordance with designated specifications) are permitted between manufacturers and wholesalers or retailers provided that delivery is made contingent upon compliance with the applicable equipment authorization and technical requirements.
      (ii) A radio frequency device that is in the conceptual, developmental, design or pre-production stage may be offered for sale solely to business, commercial, industrial, scientific or medical users (but not an offer for sale to other parties or to end users located in a residential environment) if the prospective buyer is advised in writing at the time of the offer for sale that the equipment is subject to the FCC rules and that the equipment will comply with the appropriate rules before delivery to the buyer or to centers of distribution.
      (iii) (A) A radio frequency device may be advertised or displayed, (e.g., at a trade show or exhibition) if accompanied by a conspicuous notice containing this language:
        This device has not been authorized as required by the rules of the Federal Communications Commission. This device is not, and may not be, offered for sale or lease, or sold or leased, until authorization is obtained.
      (B) If the device being displayed is a prototype of a device that has been properly authorized and the prototype, itself, is not authorized due to differences between the prototype and the authorized device, this language may be used instead: Prototype. Not for Sale.
      (iv) An evaluation kit as defined in  2.1 may be sold provided that:
      (A) Sales are limited to product developers, software developers, and system integrators;
      (B) The following notice is included with the kit:
      FCC NOTICE: This kit is designed to allow:
      (1) Product developers to evaluate electronic components, circuitry, or software associated with the kit to determine whether to incorporate such items in a finished product and
      (2) Software developers to write software applications for use with the end product. This kit is not a finished product and when assembled may not be resold or otherwise marketed unless all required FCC equipment authorizations are first obtained. Operation is subject to the condition that this product not cause harmful interference to licensed radio stations and that this product accept harmful interference. Unless the assembled kit is designed to operate under part 15, part 18 or part 95 of this chapter, the operator of the kit must operate under the authority of an FCC license holder or must secure an experimental authorization under part 5 of this chapter.
      (C) The kit is labeled with the following legend: For evaluation only; not FCC approved for resale; and
      (D) Any radiofrequency transmitter employed as part of an evaluation kit shall be designed to comply with all applicable FCC technical rules, including frequency use, spurious and out-of-band emission limits, and maximum power or field strength ratings applicable to final products that would employ the components or circuitry to be evaluated.
      (d) Importation. The provisions of subpart K of this part continue to apply to imported radio frequency devices.
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Henry Cohen

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Andrew Broughton

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Re: 2 way radios
« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2018, 11:42:26 am »

Must be one of the most unenforced laws ever.
Type in Baofeng and dozens (if not hundreds) of suppliers in the USA come up. Even Amazon and eBay don't care and allow tons to be sold through their platform.
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-Andy

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Henry Cohen

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Re: 2 way radios
« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2018, 05:15:13 pm »

Must be one of the most unenforced laws ever.
Type in Baofeng and dozens (if not hundreds) of suppliers in the USA come up. Even Amazon and eBay don't care and allow tons to be sold through their platform.

Yes: Far too many offenders, far too few FCC enforcement bureau agents and not enough perceived public harm to warrant a change.
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Henry Cohen

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Andrew Broughton

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Re: 2 way radios
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2018, 09:48:34 pm »

Ok, now that we have that out of the way...
Back to my question...

Has anyone seen a product with the functionality of the "Cheap Chinese Radios"TM, (even if they're made in China) but with decent quality? Some Chinese manufacturers make some decent stuff, just haven't seen it in Radio Land...
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 09:54:15 pm by Andrew Broughton »
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-Andy

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Henry Cohen

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Re: 2 way radios
« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2018, 10:07:22 am »

Has anyone seen a product with the functionality of the "Cheap Chinese Radios"TM, (even if they're made in China) but with decent quality? Some Chinese manufacturers make some decent stuff, just haven't seen it in Radio Land...

Because they are not legal, not enough people will pay top dollar for a Motorola/Kenwood/Hytera/Tait equivalent quality product to make it profitable to manufacture, even given Chinese labor costs. So the answer is no, at least not in the USA.
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Henry Cohen

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Tom Provenza

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Re: 2 way radios
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2018, 01:06:48 pm »

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Tom Provenza
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