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[Scott Holtzman]

Sorry, I talked about this in previous posts but didn't make it clear here.  I wish these mixers already had the I/O split out into a separate stage box.  It seems really stupid to me to put the I/O with the control surface in a digital mixer.  Who wouldn't want to get rid of their analog snake?  And who wants to pay twice for the I/O and not use half of it?  It could be so much more flexible (and cheaper overall) if they just had a modular system.

There are many boards with low local I/O count.  Mackie has one that is approaching the low end of the market.

I do agree the CPU should be in the stage box.

The price points you are talking about are more in the toy range than a component of a competent reliable sound reinforcement system.

When you get to this price point what does the rest of the system look like?  $1000 doesn't even get you mic stands, cables and a case to transport them in that will last more than a few gigs.  $1000/ea is about the right price point for reasonably accurate speakers. 

What is the goal of the artists?  That should really dictate the PA system.  Are they playing with quality instruments? 

[Stelios Mac]

I actually see the car analogy the other way -- people are buying Lambos when they only need a Corolla and will never use the speed or handling of the Lambo

That depends. I'd get a Lambo just for the looks of it, lol.

And I'm not sure about depreciation -- historically digital gear has depreciated like crazy as it's constantly changing, much more so than analog.  We're in a transition period right now where analog is being phased out, and audio gear doesn't change as often as some things, but I have a hard time believing any of it will hold its value very long.

That's why I said short term.
In the long term digital would depreciate as much as analog if not more (A very good friend of mine got a mint condition TMD8000 for something like $2k (They can be found for less than that but it really was like-new).
And I think in the long run a Corolla would depreciate much more (percentage wise) than a rare exotic (Sometimes rare exotics will even appreciate, but that's another thing).
You can't really accurately predict what will happen in the long run like you said.
However:
A Soundcraft GB4-16-2 that can be had on thomann for 2 thousand euros, can be bought second hand (The ad I'm actually looking at is for a single-use demo unit, so brand-new condition) for 600 euros (inc. VAT). 70% depreciation in just one use.
Meanwhile a brand new X32 will set you back 2.300 euros on thomann. Or you can have a really beat up (armrest completely stripped of paint, a broken scribble script LCD) early (2014) model for 1800 euros (inc. VAT). 22% depreciation in 3 years. Admittedly the X32's prices did fluctuate somewhat since it was first released but that doesn't change the fact that you can have either desk at a 22% price difference.

Anyway, if you're still considering an analog desk, I'd seriously suggest you take a look at used ones, but I'd go for an X32 or x/mAir.
Cheers!

[John Roberts {JR}]

Both actually.  I am in automotive.  Making 1 of something really well is easy.  Making 1,000,000 ..... significantly more difficult.  I also think that the reliability engineering was done quite well.  The original batch had some issues with the buttons sticking, but that was resolved fairly quickly (I believe the issue was a process problem of the cleaning solvent used IIRC?).

we will have to agree to disagree... QC IMO is mainly a factory floor process execution issue, reliability engineering a completely different discipline.  (While I didn't make millions of one SKU which would have been a little easier than my mix, I appreciate and encountered plenty of mass production issues too.)

I believe the term is "Recombinant engineering".  You don't have to develop the A/D converter, you just have to pick a really good one and implement it well.  As with all smaller engineering companies, you have to determine what your "value add" is and focus on that part.  Within a digital mixer, the DSP and work-flow would be where I would spend my time.  I doubt there is a hill of beans difference between one preamp and the next these days.  It seems like Behringer has done a good job of adding value with their assets while using very good recombinant engineering for many things that are "commodity engineering".

I believe you made that term up... Google suggests something to do with DNA  . Not sure what commodity engineering means either (perhaps "Value" engineering which is sharp pencil cost management (which Behringer did in the X32). Selecting appropriate components and properly applying them is old school design engineering 101.

Marketers have pretended that there were audible differences between preamps for years, long before digital became dominant. Midas actually has a soft clipping feature in their mic preamp that does sound different (for better or worse).

The biggest nut to crack in modern digital mixer design is the paradigm shift to a vastly different workflow. Behringer rode the coat tails of Yamaha's pioneering effort to introduce the different way to early adopters years ago. The pioneers often end up with arrows in their backs. It doesn't hurt that adequate processing power and transparent digital audio paths became cost effective in the meantime. For a low enough entry level price the great unwashed masses were willing to try digital, and they liked it.

Yes, but sadly, more and more of the "good" used mixers have reached the point where you can't purchase parts for them.  With my old MixWiz, the boards were quite simple, and I had the schematic.  I suppose I could have maintained the board nearly indefinitely .... or until a proprietary part failed.

Yes, lots of semi-custom pots and switches, maybe jacks in analog mixers that can't be supported indefinitely, a few proprietary meter chips, but the analog audio path can be supported with jelly bean parts for some time longer.

I am still not sure I am of the opinion that an analog RIG is more reliable than a digital rig.
Possibly so.  Habits of an old engineer that has taught a sea other engineers and has been promoted into relative uselessness

Different failure modes, while some professional old school analog boards were designed to isolate single channel failures so the other 90% of the desk was still functional, many digital platforms can experience complete shut down. That said they appear to be pretty reliable.

I recall a similar debate when digital snakes were first proposed. Nobody denied the economy but most were afraid to risk the single point of failure.

Have to keep the grey matter stimulated somehow John.

Glad I could help... 

JR

[Craig Smith]

That depends. I'd get a Lambo just for the looks of it, lol.
That's why I said short term.
In the long term digital would depreciate as much as analog if not more (A very good friend of mine got a mint condition TMD8000 for something like $2k (They can be found for less than that but it really was like-new).
And I think in the long run a Corolla would depreciate much more (percentage wise) than a rare exotic (Sometimes rare exotics will even appreciate, but that's another thing).
You can't really accurately predict what will happen in the long run like you said.
However:
A Soundcraft GB4-16-2 that can be had on thomann for 2 thousand euros, can be bought second hand (The ad I'm actually looking at is for a single-use demo unit, so brand-new condition) for 600 euros (inc. VAT). 70% depreciation in just one use.
Meanwhile a brand new X32 will set you back 2.300 euros on thomann. Or you can have a really beat up (armrest completely stripped of paint, a broken scribble script LCD) early (2014) model for 1800 euros (inc. VAT). 22% depreciation in 3 years. Admittedly the X32's prices did fluctuate somewhat since it was first released but that doesn't change the fact that you can have either desk at a 22% price difference.

Anyway, if you're still considering an analog desk, I'd seriously suggest you take a look at used ones, but I'd go for an X32 or x/mAir.
Cheers!

For the average person both cars and consoles are best bought because you like them, not because you plan to sell them.  If they happen to hold their value you get lucky.  I'm a car guy so am with you on the Lambo; likewise I *want* a digital mixer.  Maybe I should go the rack mount/tablet route and see how it works first, and hope that Behringer comes out with a cheaper control surface someday.

[Craig Smith]

InfoComm is next month, Musik Messe just ended, and the next NAMM show is in Jan 2018; those are the typical events at which new products are introduced.  Two down, one to go...

Good point.  I don't see anything interesting so far this year; I didn't know that InfoComm was another option.

[Craig Smith]

Maybe I should go the rack mount/tablet route and see how it works first, and hope that Behringer comes out with a cheaper control surface someday.

Is it OK to quote oneself?

As I think about it, this won't work for me as I need at least one stereo input at FOH for the soundtrack.  Plus I'd like a talkback mic, and really like to have the wireless receivers at the desk so I can see what's happening.  But a DI and my small analog snake would do the trick.

I normally like to solo channels as well, but maybe with good meters I wouldn't need to.

Unfortunately to get rid of an analog snake it doesn't look like the XR16 will work; I don't see an AES50 connection.  Bummer, it would nice if it functioned as both for times when my requirements are different.  And since it's a lot cheaper than the S16/SD16 stage boxes.  Even the XR18 is cheaper and it has just as many inputs/outputs.  Lame.

[Scott Bolt]

Is it OK to quote oneself?

As I think about it, this won't work for me as I need at least one stereo input at FOH for the soundtrack.  Plus I'd like a talkback mic, and really like to have the wireless receivers at the desk so I can see what's happening.  But a DI and my small analog snake would do the trick.

I normally like to solo channels as well, but maybe with good meters I wouldn't need to.

Unfortunately to get rid of an analog snake it doesn't look like the XR16 will work; I don't see an AES50 connection.  Bummer, it would nice if it functioned as both for times when my requirements are different.  And since it's a lot cheaper than the S16/SD16 stage boxes.  Even the XR18 is cheaper and it has just as many inputs/outputs.  Lame.

Yep.  Only the X32 line has the ability to expand channel count or use a stage box.

If you can put your sound track on the USB stick in the front of the mixer (you have to convert them to .wav files first), you can remotely run the different tracks remotely using the same tablet interface that controls the rest of the mixer.  I believe this would work on the X-Air mixers.  I know it works on the X32 mixers as I do this myself.

If you buy the X32 Producer, you can try out running from a tablet, and still have faders.  It is an awful lot of mixer for only 1K.

[David Winners]

I run an XR18 and use a wireless headset for talkback (and occasional backing vocals) a wireless in ear system for cans and a Raspberry Pi running Kodi controlled by my cell phone for break music. I have all this stuff on hand for when I play in bands so I didn't need to lay out a bunch of cash to get it set up. It works well for the shows I mix.

[Craig Smith]

Yep.  Only the X32 line has the ability to expand channel count or use a stage box.

If you can put your sound track on the USB stick in the front of the mixer (you have to convert them to .wav files first), you can remotely run the different tracks remotely using the same tablet interface that controls the rest of the mixer.  I believe this would work on the X-Air mixers.  I know it works on the X32 mixers as I do this myself.

If you buy the X32 Producer, you can try out running from a tablet, and still have faders.  It is an awful lot of mixer for only 1K.

What I meant was I was hoping to use an XR16 as a stage box for the X32, but it doesn't look like you can.  Unless you can use Ultranet to do that.  I sent an inquiry to Behringer but haven't heard back.  (I've already heard back from Soundcraft twice on their products.)

Good to know about being able to play music remotely.  Interestingly it looks like you can only do that on the XR16, not the XR18.  And I guess you can either play music or record but not both since it only has one port. 

All these mixers have an amazing amount of features.  I think the Producer is still the way to go but we'll see.

[Craig Smith]

I run an XR18 and use a wireless headset for talkback (and occasional backing vocals) a wireless in ear system for cans and a Raspberry Pi running Kodi controlled by my cell phone for break music. I have all this stuff on hand for when I play in bands so I didn't need to lay out a bunch of cash to get it set up. It works well for the shows I mix.

Cool, thanks for the ideas.

[ProSoundWeb Community]