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Author Topic: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band  (Read 20968 times)

Tim McCulloch

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #80 on: June 28, 2017, 06:26:01 pm »

Hi Tim, are you saying that you believe alignment in small rooms is not a worthwhile activity, generally speaking, or am I misreading this?


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No, I'm saying it's even more an imprecise exercise than when you do it in bigger rooms with a more spread out audience.

If it's going to be be "wrong" everywhere but 1 place in the room, how "wrong" can it be and still be an improvement?  If you've got a typical L/R speaker placement and the stage isn't in a corner you can use the measured distance between the loudest thing on stage and the mains.  Now, where do you stand and which main speaker do you measure to?  See where I'm going with this?

In smaller rooms what I have done is very simple:  I stand between the mains, about as far back as the L/R speakers are apart, and measure the distance to the snare drum or guitar amp or kazoo amp or whatever, and then maintaining the same distance from the stage & standing on-axis with a mains PA speaker, measure to it.  Subtract, convert to milliseconds and enter the delay for L/R; presuming the subs are already aligned with the tops, add the same amount of delay to them as well.  That's the starting point and you may add a couple more ms. (or not, if you can't tell the difference when the punters show up).

The thing is in small rooms the reflections from ceiling, walls and various furnishings like bars and banquettes are typically within the 6dB-12dB range for combing - with both the origin sounds and the other reflections.  For the folks who are within the *critical distance* of the PA and also getting direct stage SPL there is benefit to such alignment.  For the audience who hears primarily either the stage or PA, not so much, and for those punters beyond the *critical distance*, it probably makes little difference (but how much it might help is determined by factors we can't predict in our discussion here).
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

BrianHenry

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #81 on: June 28, 2017, 06:58:12 pm »

Ok I see what you are saying. So, since you mention alignment w the sub, I assume that is worthwhile too. What would you recommend as an alignment procedure between sub and tops in my situation where I am using one sub and it is placed to one side or the other? I would think aligning it to one top could make things unpredictably worse in it alignment w the other side (frequency dependent).


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Tim McCulloch

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #82 on: June 28, 2017, 11:15:44 pm »

Ok I see what you are saying. So, since you mention alignment w the sub, I assume that is worthwhile too. What would you recommend as an alignment procedure between sub and tops in my situation where I am using one sub and it is placed to one side or the other? I would think aligning it to one top could make things unpredictably worse in it alignment w the other side (frequency dependent).


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That's why I used the conditional language. ;)  IF you have a non-traditional sub placement...

Do this:  play some pink noise through the subs and note the measured SPL (C weight, long).  Turn off the sub and play pink in the mains LF and set the level to match the subwoofers.  Turn the subs back on and walk the coverage area, listening for areas with really wacky nulls.  If you can adjust your L/R delay via remote, add delay to the mains until the null changes frequency and then go back and listen in an area where you were previously happy...  Now you probably won't be...

There is a lot of energy in the *acoustic crossover*, which is the part of the spectrum where 2 adjacent pass bands contribute equal amounts of energy.  The acoustic crossover is almost never the same frequency as the electrical crossover, BTW.  The acoustic crossover region is the bandwidth over which the 2 adjacent pass bands have energy within 12dB of each other, and often this region is over an octave wide.  If you can make those 2 transducers play nice with each other in the phase relationship one can achieve more usable (and better sounding) output in that region.

It's a time thing, really.. 8)
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

BrianHenry

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #83 on: June 29, 2017, 08:58:46 pm »

Ok, yeah I get that. I am going to set up in the driveway tomorrow and attempt to get a baseline tuning. Thanks!


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Tim Padrick

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #84 on: June 29, 2017, 11:40:24 pm »

Put together a good mic package and IEM system, and hire the house gear.
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BrianHenry

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #85 on: June 30, 2017, 12:01:30 am »

I have a great mic package and an IEM rig. As far as hiring foh gear, the horses have bolted so not much sense in shutting the stable door :)


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BrianHenry

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2017, 05:37:36 pm »

Here is a drawing of a bar we are playing tonight (I'm aware its far from ideal - we try to maintain lower stage volume here.). Hoping for some advice on speaker positioning. I don't have room dimensions but the stage is approx 20' wide and I think the room is on the order of 25x50. The ceiling is 8' except over the stage where it is quite a bit higher. The stage is elevated about 8". The only real reasonable positions for mains are at A, B and C. I have used the A/B config and the B/C config in the past. B/C reduced volume at the bar and gave slightly more even coverage even though it looks at bit wonky. But now I need to locate the SRX828 and my initial thought is to place it vertically at B or C with a top stacked above. I'd appreciate any ideas. Thanks!
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 05:41:53 pm by BrianHenry »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2017, 06:12:09 pm »

Put the sub at location B.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

BrianHenry

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #88 on: July 08, 2017, 06:51:29 pm »

Thanks Tim


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Stephen Kirby

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2017, 07:00:47 pm »

Where to people dance or otherwise listen to the band?  I've done the single top at B as well.  You could have a second speaker at A but turn it down and point it towards C.  Speaker at B pointed at the left corner of what I presume is an entrance.  Folks at the bar will hear, just not as much HF.  Figuring that people around the bar have other agendas ;) you're directing the best sound at the folks right in front of you.
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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2017, 07:00:47 pm »


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