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Author Topic: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band  (Read 21808 times)

John Roll

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #70 on: June 23, 2017, 09:16:48 am »

Not at all.  I get a lot of mileage out of 4 KW181s and 2 KW153s.  I leave the 181s stacked and strapped, roll in/out, small rooms I power just one per side.  The 153s sit on top.  Small footprint, roll in/roll out; custom undercover NY soft cases for the stacked subs.

Dave,
When you get a chance, can you send me a pic of your set up? It sounds like something I might want to consider. I'm particularly interested in how you secure the tops to the sub stack during a show.

John
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Dave Bednarski

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2017, 09:43:24 am »

I've since sold this setup so I cannot take any updated pics but here two some that should connect the dots...

top un-strapped in this photo...
http://dbmisc.s3.amazonaws.com/kw1.jpg

in the wild...
http://dbmisc.s3.amazonaws.com/153_181_stack_strap.jpg

The subs are strapped to dolly board.  I laced a single ratchet strap from below up through the handles of the stacked subs (not over top) and linked together at the ratchet below - so it was clean and out of sight.  This allowed the padded covers to slip on as-is.  The dolly board was custom angle iron with 4 locking casters.

The tops attached the same way - ratchet strap looping the handles of the 153s around the subs below.  Care to tighten and later losen each side together to keep it from tipping but really this wasn't an issue.  If you pop'd the ratchet at the end of the night without some on the other side the top would wiggle and "walk" maybe a 1/2 inch.

Tops and bottom strapped together into a single monolithic stack.

It was solid.  I am sure a lawyer and half this board will tell me I was negligent and should be in prison.  It worked for me for years, no issues.  Looks more extreme in photos than real life.  YMMV.

BTW - the custom Undercover NY for the stacked subs are sitting in storage, no good offer will be turned down!  They were $380 new and in lovely condition.  :)  The dolly boards cost $50/each + casters from my local fabrication shop - build/buy your own.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 09:46:38 am by Dave Bednarski »
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2017, 10:53:09 am »


Tops and bottom strapped together into a single monolithic stack.

It was solid.  I am sure a lawyer and half this board will tell me I was negligent and should be in prison.  It worked for me for years, no issues.  Looks more extreme in photos than real life.  YMMV.

Looks alright to me, so long as those wheels lock well. If someone really wanted to, they could probably knock it over. Bolting it to the ground would be the only way to stop that happening, so I think your approach is entirely reasonable.

Chris
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BrianHenry

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #73 on: June 27, 2017, 02:31:43 pm »

So, the K12s have a HPF at 100 using the Ext Sub setting. I can set the DSP in the SRX828 to a 100 LFP and use the direct out on one K12 to feed the sub (or vice versa).

My question is, would I gain anything by using the DRPA2 for crossover duty instead?
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Scott Olewiler

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #74 on: June 28, 2017, 09:39:07 am »

So, the K12s have a HPF at 100 using the Ext Sub setting. I can set the DSP in the SRX828 to a 100 LFP and use the direct out on one K12 to feed the sub (or vice versa).

My question is, would I gain anything by using the DRPA2 for crossover duty instead?

Ability to time align them is one thing.  I use to think this mattered a lot more than I do now with front loaded subs. The mis-alignment distance is almost inperceivable to the ear.  More impact by delaying mains to backline IMO. I took my DR out of my signal chain on most of my setups and think they all sound better because of it.

If you're not using the limiter or the EQ or the AFS or any other of the useless features of the driverack, I see no reason to leave it in.

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BrianHenry

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PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #75 on: June 28, 2017, 11:50:44 am »

Hi Scott,

The main feature I am still using is the parametric EQ. Per Tims suggestion earlier, I still store my system tuning there. Since I am still using K12s as mains, the only other place I could potentially store that is in the mixer. My plan was to remove the DR when I eventually upgrade the mains to matching SRX boxes as I would then be able to store system EQ in the speaker DSP.

I was going to ask about alignment. My thoughts were there would not be much benefit in small rooms where I cannot get ideal sub placement. If I were to place the sub on one side with one of the mains, would there be any benefit to attempting to align for, say, a mid dance floor listening position? I don't see how this would work well with the sub being different distances from both mains.

Regarding alignment of mains to the back line, how much will this matter when the back line is only 6' back from the mains and the stage is comparatively wide?


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« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 11:55:29 am by BrianHenry »
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Dave Garoutte

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #76 on: June 28, 2017, 12:20:57 pm »


Regarding alignment of mains to the back line, how much will this matter when the back line is only 6' back from the mains and the stage is comparatively wide?

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More than you would think.  I typically have a 8-10' backline offset, and can definitely hear the difference in clarity with delaying to the mains.
You don't have to worry about vocals or anything that isn't generating significant sound on stage, but time aligning the drums and amps to the mains REALLY helps.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 03:13:21 pm by Dave Garoutte »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #77 on: June 28, 2017, 03:29:22 pm »

More than you would think.  I typically have a 8-10' backline offset, and can definitely hear the difference in clarity with delaying to the mains.
You don't have to worry about vocals or anything that isn't generating significant sound on stage, but time aligning the drums and amps to the mains REALLY helps.

Once again, you can make that alignment valid for only 1 spot in the room, for 1 source and 1 PA speaker.

If the listeners are centered and further back than the PA is spread apart, you can *kind of* think of it as planar, even though each source is spherically radiating.  When you get closer to the stage the individual sources and their distance relationship to the PA speakers and various places in the audience area becomes the predominate factor.  Fixing THAT for one spot means making it worse somewhere else (and maybe that's okay, or not).

We had an act through recently that put a small powered speaker on top of the bass rig which was right next to the drum riser.  The front fills & PA were aligned to that source, and then everything else (off stage hangs, subs) were aligned to the main PA.  The BE did some delay on a couple of inputs as well to pull it together more.  Since I couldn't A/B the band with/without the delay alignment I can't say how much or how little improvement there might have been, but overall I though he had a good mix and if that alignment helped him turn the knobs the right amount or push all the right buttons then his time was properly used.

In smaller rooms where there are multiple reflections - some early, some late and almost all of them at nearly equal levels - I'm not sure how much finesse is required once you get within a millisecond or so.
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Scott Olewiler

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #78 on: June 28, 2017, 04:39:25 pm »

More than you would think.  I typically have a 8-10' backline offset, and can definitely hear the difference in clarity with delaying to the mains.
You don't have to worry about vocals or anything that isn't generating significant sound on stage, but time aligning the drums and amps to the mains REALLY helps.

I agree 100%. I tend to mic eveything even in small rooms just to fatten the sound up a tad and I know I can hear 6' on the kick. I specifically recall a gig I did in a hotel ballroom with a small stage where I just couldn't seemed to get vocal clarity in the mix. I happen to notice I never delayed the mains, took a stab at the distance and punched in the delay and instant clarity. First time I had ever done that in the middle of a set. The vocals themselves didn't change any but the tightening up of the backline to the PA made them instantly pop out by giving them room in the mix.  It was so dramatic I was tempted to A/B it live to experience it again and again. The band must have heard it too because more than one member mentioned the room mix suddenly getting better.

Some people like to delay each individual item, but considering most of the time the backline items are already pretty much aligned with each other I usually just delay the LR and call it a day.  Exception being delaying snare top to OHs. I am  convinced most mediocre mixes I hear could be improved dramatically with just by  delaying the mains  and some judicious use of HPF and LPFs. 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 07:29:11 am by Scott Olewiler »
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BrianHenry

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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #79 on: June 28, 2017, 05:41:12 pm »



In smaller rooms where there are multiple reflections - some early, some late and almost all of them at nearly equal levels - I'm not sure how much finesse is required once you get within a millisecond or so.

Hi Tim, are you saying that you believe alignment in small rooms is not a worthwhile activity, generally speaking, or am I misreading this?


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Re: PA Growth Strategy for a Rock Band
« Reply #79 on: June 28, 2017, 05:41:12 pm »


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