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Author Topic: New to passive PA  (Read 24355 times)

Robert Lofgren

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Re: New to passive PA
« Reply #90 on: February 16, 2017, 02:12:12 pm »

If you got the 715 instead of the 712, run those speakers and see if you actually need a sub.

I would be able to do a normal bar gig with my 712 and not miss a sub particularly much.

Also, keep in mind that those 715 are dsp controlled so you may or may not have to delay compensate in the crossover region due to the dsp latency.
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: New to passive PA
« Reply #91 on: February 16, 2017, 02:24:48 pm »

Because the construction of the box and the quality of the driver matter so much, subs are one thing you can't really cheap out on.  While it seems like every rig described here involves a sub, for a live band in smaller venues it's not always necessary, and often muddies up the proceedings.  Tell the drummer to take the laundry out of the kick drum and let it ring a bit.  It might sound a bit funny by itself but it will carry the beat into the mix much better.  I have a KickPort in my drum and it actually works.  Un-mice'd in a pub I lay an Evans pillow thing in the middle of the bottom of the shell but not touching either head.  It's just there to damp the pipe resonance from the 18" deep shell.  Powerstroke heads which have very little damping compared to SuperKicks or EMADs.  Recording or mic'd up it's different but you'd be surprised how a well tuned kick drum can carry without a sub.  Rock bands did it for years when rock was invented.

My advice, get good tops so you can hear the vocals.  That's what most people respond to.  As you save up and the band gets better gigs, then get one good single 18 subs.  The KW or PRX XLF get good marks here.

I've heard the K-subs once but they weren't being pushed and it was in a well designed theater where the bass sounds pretty good with just about anything.  They weren't as one-notey as I expected but there are enough better choices out there.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: New to passive PA
« Reply #92 on: February 16, 2017, 02:25:04 pm »

Of those 3 choices I think the Yamaha would have the most satisfying output level.  I've not heard the K-Sub but it got enough negative reviews when compared to other subs that I'll take the testimony of those reviewers.  I never liked the EON subs.  I think it's the cabinet resonances that make it sound really, really 'funny' to me.

I have heard the 15" Yamaha subs...wow; those are quite amazing for their size. 2x of those keep up with 4x HPR 18" subs or 2x LAB subs. [Widely spaced, same room, same-ish genre music. I'm sure coupled center it would be different.]
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: New to passive PA
« Reply #93 on: February 16, 2017, 02:31:37 pm »

I have heard the 15" Yamaha subs...wow; those are quite amazing for their size. 2x of those keep up with 4x HPR 18" subs or 2x LAB subs. [Widely spaced, same room, same-ish genre music. I'm sure coupled center it would be different.]

Consider that Tom D's LABhorn sub was designed to be used in blocks of at least 3 units (the larger mouth area flattens the frequency response) and I'd say that's not a valid comparison because of the difference between the designs.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Nathan Riddle

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Re: New to passive PA
« Reply #94 on: February 16, 2017, 03:50:16 pm »

Consider that Tom D's LABhorn sub was designed to be used in blocks of at least 3 units (the larger mouth area flattens the frequency response) and I'd say that's not a valid comparison because of the difference between the designs.

I agree, which is why I gave a setting for the comparison. The LABhorn's were being used somewhat incorrectly.

I was just commenting how I've heard 3 different types of subs in the same venue, with same content, with same basic layout and how they compare. If that wasn't useful information, sorry.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: New to passive PA
« Reply #95 on: February 16, 2017, 04:03:14 pm »

I agree, which is why I gave a setting for the comparison. The LABhorn's were being used somewhat incorrectly.

I was just commenting how I've heard 3 different types of subs in the same venue, with same content, with same basic layout and how they compare. If that wasn't useful information, sorry.

It's an "ear of the beholder" thing, Nathan.  If the bumpy response of the LABhorn in singles tended to favor the program material I put through them it would give an unfair impression against subs with flatter response; the person who then used the LABhorn with different material would go WTF, Nathan is crazy! (even though you aren't).

Toss in that one guys "free DBs" is another mans excessive harmonic distortion - it's all subjective.  That's why in my comment about the EON subs I said "sounds funny to me" and identified what I think might be making unpleasant to my sense of what subs should sound like.

In this instance I was pointing out why the comparison of horns designed for use in multiples will not sound the same used in singles and that comparing a 24cuft horn to a 6cuft front loaded or bandpass design is an apples-to-oranges thing.  Been there, done that, left the shirt.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Nathan Riddle

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Re: New to passive PA
« Reply #96 on: February 16, 2017, 04:07:42 pm »

It's an "ear of the beholder" thing, Nathan.  If the bumpy response of the LABhorn in singles tended to favor the program material I put through them it would give an unfair impression against subs with flatter response; the person who then used the LABhorn with different material would go WTF, Nathan is crazy! (even though you aren't).

Toss in that one guys "free DBs" is another mans excessive harmonic distortion - it's all subjective.  That's why in my comment about the EON subs I said "sounds funny to me" and identified what I think might be making unpleasant to my sense of what subs should sound like.

In this instance I was pointing out why the comparison of horns designed for use in multiples will not sound the same used in singles and that comparing a 24cuft horn to a 6cuft front loaded or bandpass design is an apples-to-oranges thing.  Been there, done that, left the shirt.

That makes sense, thanks for setting me straight. :)

In the LAB Horn's defense, it did sound better IMO. Though there are 1000's of factors; so not really a useful spec.
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I'm just a guy trying to do the next right thing.

This business is for people with too much energy for desk jobs and too much brain for labor jobs. - Scott Helmke

Tim McCulloch

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Re: New to passive PA
« Reply #97 on: February 16, 2017, 11:41:12 pm »

That makes sense, thanks for setting me straight. :)

In the LAB Horn's defense, it did sound better IMO. Though there are 1000's of factors; so not really a useful spec.

Writing or speaking about sound is like describing a rainbow to the blind.  Nathan Lively said it well:  sound is hard because it's invisible.  At any rate this is why critical listening and auditioning of gear is terribly important.  When 2 sets of otherwise identical 'simple number' specifications for 2 different speakers can still sound very different there's no way to represent that on paper...
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Geert Friedhof

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Re: New to passive PA
« Reply #98 on: February 17, 2017, 07:28:01 am »

Since you got the ART 715, i would save up for a single RCF sub 708-AS II, crossed at 80 Hz, or better the new pro 8003-AS II. Nothing less. No sense in buying a 15" sub. Then get a second one. You will end up with a very decent set, capable enough for bigger rooms. In the mean time think about hiring sub(s) when needed.

Remember: Buy once, cry once.
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Debbie Dunkley

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Re: New to passive PA
« Reply #99 on: February 17, 2017, 08:59:02 am »

The JBL PRX715xlf is a very surprising sub for its size and weight and although now in short supply due to it being discontinued, I am sure the replacement - the PRX815xlf would be just as good if not better. I had 2 of them and only sold them recently to allow more room for the 18" subs I use more frequently. They were great for bar work. They were also nice for load in and out - I could pick each one up myself - easily!.
Excellent low end, nice tight punchy sound to the kick drum. Weighs 25.4kg


https://www.thomann.de/gb/jbl_prx815xlfw.htm?ref=search_prv_6
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Re: New to passive PA
« Reply #99 on: February 17, 2017, 08:59:02 am »


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