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Author Topic: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination  (Read 10878 times)

Helge A Bentsen

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Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« on: February 07, 2017, 04:40:56 am »

I have a customer who has a number of Shure PSM1000 and Sennheiser EW500 G3 IEM units in these frequencies:
Sennheiser EW500 G3 - 566-608 MHz
Shure PSM 1000 - 554-626 MHz

He has tried coordinating them using WWB6 and WSM, but the results have been mixed.
It seems like the manufacturers programs does the best job on their own products.

Is there a reliable 3rd party software available that can coordinate both systems?
Or is there a way of making WWB6/WSM more reliable for coordinating both brands?


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Jordan Wolf

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Re: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2017, 08:00:26 am »

So long as the model/band specs are input correctly for each device profile, the numbers should still crunch correctly. They may be different when run side-by-side, but they should still work for IMD, etc. avoidance.

Aside from WWB and SIFM, Professional Wireless' IAS is the industry standard.

For WWB, try duplicating a device profile and editing the frequency range to restrict the least agile system from directly stepping in the other system.
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Jens Palm Bacher

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Re: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2017, 03:35:45 pm »

I have a customer who has a number of Shure PSM1000 and Sennheiser EW500 G3 IEM units in these frequencies:
Sennheiser EW500 G3 - 566-608 MHz
Shure PSM 1000 - 554-626 MHz

He has tried coordinating them using WWB6 and WSM, but the results have been mixed.
It seems like the manufacturers programs does the best job on their own products.

Is there a reliable 3rd party software available that can coordinate both systems?
Or is there a way of making WWB6/WSM more reliable for coordinating both brands?
Is he using proper combiners (AC3200/Shure PA821) ?
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Helge A Bentsen

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Re: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2017, 04:36:27 pm »

Is he using proper combiners (AC3200/Shure PA821) ?

I don't know yet, I haven't recieved a complete equipment list.
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Helge A Bentsen

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Re: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2017, 07:22:51 am »

I got a equipment list.

He's got a setup of wireless mics and IEMs, not just IEMs as he originally told me.

IEMs
2x 4 channel racks with PSM1000 P10T and combiners.
2x 2 channel racks with PSM1000 P10T without combiners
All in J8E (554.125 – 625.850 MHz)

Mics:
10x 4 ch racks with EM 500 G3-G-EU and antenna distros
All in G (566 - 608 MHz)

A typical job where he mixes WL and IEM consists of 8-10 channels of IEM and 4 channels of WL.
His biggest concern is that WWB and SIFM reports differently regarding channel with and separation.

I have no experience with SIFM but I have used WWB6 successfully in the past for combining Shure and AKG.
Could it be that he should only use one program for his wireless planning instead of trying to combine two different ones?




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Jordan Wolf

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Re: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2017, 08:01:42 am »

Could it be that he should only use one program for his wireless planning instead of trying to combine two different ones?
I would say "yes".

A man with two watches never knows which one is correct...always use the same tape measure to mark your cuts...etc., etc.

I think it's good to test one against the other and compare, but differences do not automatically mean that one is spitting out more- or less-reliable data.

What is "good enough" is up to interpretation, but erring on the side of caution is my preference.

All that said, I think the best long-term solution would be to suggest investing in another band of either IEM or WX mic; out-of-band, out-of-mind (mostly, IMO).
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Helge A. Bentsen

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Re: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2017, 09:34:59 am »

He's holding off on new purchases for a couple of years since we don't know yet what frequencies we end up with.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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John Sulek

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Re: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2017, 10:26:17 am »

I would say pick the program he is most at ease with and stick to that. Using two different coordination programs sort of defeats the purpose.
He can always edit the bandwidth and separation values if he feels they are more accurate in one program then the other.
If possible, allocate the available spectrum into two blocks. One for iem tx, one for mic rx and leave some space between the two.
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Ike Zimbel

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Re: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2017, 10:42:01 am »

I would say pick the program he is most at ease with and stick to that. Using two different coordination programs sort of defeats the purpose.
He can always edit the bandwidth and separation values if he feels they are more accurate in one program then the other.
If possible, allocate the available spectrum into two blocks. One for iem tx, one for mic rx and leave some space between the two.
+1! If what your guy has been doing is using WSM to coordinate the Sennheiser mic systems and then using WWB6 to coordinate the Shure IEM systems separately, then that's not a coordination. As others have already said, he needs to pick one program and coordinate ALL the systems with it. Once that's done, what he CAN do is use WSM to monitor the Sennheisers and WWB6 to monitor the Shures, but if he needs to make any changes, he has to calculate them in whichever program he did the coordination in. "One ring to rule them all..."
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~Ike Zimbel~
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brian maddox

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Re: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2017, 01:23:58 pm »

+1! If what your guy has been doing is using WSM to coordinate the Sennheiser mic systems and then using WWB6 to coordinate the Shure IEM systems separately, then that's not a coordination. As others have already said, he needs to pick one program and coordinate ALL the systems with it. Once that's done, what he CAN do is use WSM to monitor the Sennheisers and WWB6 to monitor the Shures, but if he needs to make any changes, he has to calculate them in whichever program he did the coordination in. "One ring to rule them all..."

This.
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Jens Palm Bacher

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Re: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2017, 01:46:33 pm »

I got a equipment list.

He's got a setup of wireless mics and IEMs, not just IEMs as he originally told me.

IEMs
2x 4 channel racks with PSM1000 P10T and combiners.
2x 2 channel racks with PSM1000 P10T without combiners
All in J8E (554.125 – 625.850 MHz)

Mics:
10x 4 ch racks with EM 500 G3-G-EU and antenna distros
All in G (566 - 608 MHz)

A typical job where he mixes WL and IEM consists of 8-10 channels of IEM and 4 channels of WL.
His biggest concern is that WWB and SIFM reports differently regarding channel with and separation.

I have no experience with SIFM but I have used WWB6 successfully in the past for combining Shure and AKG.
Could it be that he should only use one program for his wireless planning instead of trying to combine two different ones?
Tell him to move the receive antennas minimum 10metres away from transmit antennas, this will most likely solve most of his problems with hits on the Sennheisers.
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Ike Zimbel

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Re: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2017, 09:14:16 pm »

I got a equipment list.

He's got a setup of wireless mics and IEMs, not just IEMs as he originally told me.

IEMs
2x 4 channel racks with PSM1000 P10T and combiners.
2x 2 channel racks with PSM1000 P10T without combiners
All in J8E (554.125 – 625.850 MHz)

Mics:
10x 4 ch racks with EM 500 G3-G-EU and antenna distros
All in G (566 - 608 MHz)

A typical job where he mixes WL and IEM consists of 8-10 channels of IEM and 4 channels of WL.
His biggest concern is that WWB and SIFM reports differently regarding channel with and separation.

I have no experience with SIFM but I have used WWB6 successfully in the past for combining Shure and AKG.
Could it be that he should only use one program for his wireless planning instead of trying to combine two different ones?
Another thing he needs to keep in mind is that the IEM racks without combiners are going to produce a LOT more IM products than the ones on the combiner. I am (I hope) attaching a couple of screen shots showing the difference with and without a combiner. The red traces show the IM products that were produced when the 6 units were on individual whip antennas, the green trace shows the same units through a Sennheiser AC3000 combiner and a single antenna.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 09:19:15 pm by Ike Zimbel »
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~Ike Zimbel~
Wireless frequency coordination specialist.
Manufacturer's Representative (Canada)

Radio Active Designs
~416-720-0887~
ca.linkedin.com/pub/ike-zimbel/48/aa1/266

Jordan Wolf

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Re: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2017, 09:43:13 pm »

Ike,

What unit did you use to grab the scan data?
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Jordan Wolf
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"We want our sound to go into the soul of the audience, and see if it can awaken some little thing in their minds... Cause there are so many sleeping people." - Jimi Hendrix

Ike Zimbel

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Re: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2017, 10:01:57 pm »

Ike,

What unit did you use to grab the scan data?
Hi Jordan,
      1st pic is WWB, albeit a few versions ago (pics are from 2014) and the 2nd pic is the RF Command Center https://kaltmancreationsllc.com/pro-audio-wireless/invisible-waves-rf-analyzers/rf-command-center/
iz
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~Ike Zimbel~
Wireless frequency coordination specialist.
Manufacturer's Representative (Canada)

Radio Active Designs
~416-720-0887~
ca.linkedin.com/pub/ike-zimbel/48/aa1/266

Helge A Bentsen

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Re: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2017, 05:11:21 am »

Thanks for the input :)

I'll have a chat with him and see if we can establish some best practices for doing this.

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Christian Tepfer

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Re: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2017, 07:54:35 am »

I have a customer who has a number of Shure PSM1000 and Sennheiser EW500 G3 IEM units in these frequencies:
Sennheiser EW500 G3 - 566-608 MHz
Shure PSM 1000 - 554-626 MHz

He has tried coordinating them using WWB6 and WSM, but the results have been mixed.
It seems like the manufacturers programs does the best job on their own products.

Is there a reliable 3rd party software available that can coordinate both systems?
Or is there a way of making WWB6/WSM more reliable for coordinating both brands?
I have had good results with WWB and WinRadio and/or RFExplorer for scanning. I start with the least agile/selective units (the Sennheisers in that case) and build the coordination upon that results.
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2017, 08:51:36 am »

As indicated, use one program only for coordination. There is no reason WWB should not work in this application.
+1 on the antenna location. Keep IEM TX away from receiver antennas. This is a HUGE issue I see all the time.
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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2017, 12:59:04 pm »

I use Shure’s Wireless Bench, I have for a while and I am very comfortable with it. I really like the latest update version 6.12 and I was surprised how much was changed and for the better. I thought with that much changed that it would have been version 7.

I usually have to coordinate Shure, Sennheiser and sometimes a small amount of wireless comms. I can get into a lot of detail but the basics are, due to lack of accuracy or band width restrictions with other methods, I get the best results using a WinRadio scanner. I use the WinRadio software with a plug in called Hit Counter and then I import the results into WWB 6.12 after manipulating the data in Excel. I have a partial macro in Excel and I need to sharpen my Macro writing skills and improve on that part of my procedures. But with the WinRadio I have found that the accuracy of the scans are right on. And WWB 6.12 has the different manufacturers systems defined in it so that is one reason I really like it. You can mix and match and get it all working together.

As other have said you need to coordinate in one system. And as I have indicated here it is best to also scan the environment and see what is out there to get the best coordination possible. And proper antenna techniques and placement.

There are two different venues I have worked in in one town and they are a few miles away from each other and I have tried to do a worse case coordination that would work in which ever place I am in but when I include the scan in the room I can never just use the same frequency set up for both rooms, it needs to be different for each room. Now I am being extremely picky, but because of that I have not had a problem with wireless that was the result of interference in a long time. I may try it again this year and see if I can come up with a coordination that works in both rooms. If I have the time and can scan both places ahead of time and merge those scans it might work.   
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Re: Shure and Sennheiser frequency coordination
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2017, 12:59:04 pm »


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