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[Jamin Lynch]

I have an event coming up in a high school auditorium. There will be a 4 piece band. Bass, drums, guitar, keys, 1 vocal. Contemporary Christian music.  The auditorium seats about 400.

The issue is the stage is about 5ft tall. I'm trying to decide how to set up the subs and tops. There will be 2 single 18" subs and 1 15"/horn tops per side.

Here's the options I'm considering:

1. Set up subs on the floor with tops on stands also on the floor, much like I usually do for other events with a lower stage. My concern with this set up is the tops will only be about 2ft above the stage. I think the coverage will be good though. But it's the look factor. (normally I wouldn't care much) If I put the tops on stands and on the stage they will be too tall.

2. Locate subs and tops on stage with tops sitting on subs (no stands). I'm afraid I'll loose a lot of low end with subs on the stage.

I can't center cluster the subs because they will be in the way.

What do you guys think?

Thanks

[Nathan Riddle]

Is there a pit?

Is the floor sloped?

Do you not have taller/shorter Tripod stands?

You could cluster the subs to one side perhaps?

If the coverage will work with stands & subs on floor does it really matter if the 'look' is 'off' Personally, for events like those I'd love to have the mains 'disappear' and not have ugly tripods on stage.

[Ivan Beaver]

Since you are only talking about 4 speakers, I would setup one side of the stage on the stage and the other side on the floor.

Then listen to each setup.

WHichever one sounds better, move the other one.

You are only moving 2 speakers.

[Paul G. OBrien]

1. Set up subs on the floor with tops on stands also on the floor,

Why the stands... no pole sockets in the subs?

My concern with this set up is the tops will only be about 2ft above the stage.
If I put the tops on stands and on the stage they will be too tall.

Getting the speakers up really high and angling them down(if possible) is often the recommendation when covering larger areas with a smaller number of speakers.

. Locate subs and tops on stage with tops sitting on subs (no stands). I'm afraid I'll loose a lot of low end with subs on the stage.

There is a good chance it will create some notches in the response... 5ft is 1/2 wavelength at 113hz, add that to the lowend nodal issues these rooms typically have and getting any kind of even low freq coverage is fun. 

I can't center cluster the subs because they will be in the way.

Pick one of the front corners and put all the subs there but don't bother yourself with trying to time align them.

[Stephen Kirby]

One thing to consider is that an elevated stage (especially temporary ones) is probably hollow with no baffles underneath.  Which can make for a lot of boomyness and transmit vibration up into mic stands.  This is a consideration for centered subs as they fold back the bass onto the stage more than split deployment.
Also, if you can get the subs near the side walls, the effect on the nulls right in front of them that would happen outdoors or in modeling programs is mitigated somewhat.

[Jamin Lynch]

Why the stands... no pole sockets in the subs? Getting the speakers up really high and angling them down(if possible) is often the recommendation when covering larger areas with a smaller number of speakers.
 There is a good chance it will create some notches in the response... 5ft is 1/2 wavelength at 113hz, add that to the lowend nodal issues these rooms typically have and getting any kind of even low freq coverage is fun. 
 Pick one of the front corners and put all the subs there but don't bother yourself with trying to time align them.

There are pole sockets in the subs and tops, but I can raise the tops up higher with crank stands I already have if the subs are on the floor.

Not able to down angle unfortunately

[Ivan Beaver]

 There is a good chance it will create some notches in the response... 5ft is 1/2 wavelength at 113hz,

It is NOT the distance between cabinets that is of interest in terms of cancellations.

It is the distance between the SOUND ARRIVALS of the different speakers at a particular location that is of interest.

If the speakers are separated, then as you move around the relative distance between them will change.

In the case of a sub and top, the only place you will get that particular cancellation is directly above the cabinets-where that arrival distance would be equal to the physical spacing.

Everywhere else the difference of arrival time will be less.

[Scott Holtzman]

What makes you think the speakers would be "too high" on the stage?


Aesthetics aside the higher the better.  The difference in distance between the people in the back and the people in the front is reduced. 


You will have to have the speakers louder to cover the larger space so you want the speakers as far away from the front row as you can.


Skrim's can be used to make them look nice.


What kind of tops are they?  Some have built in tilters.  If not you really should think about some tilters.  If you can't get them tilted then some small fills on the stage lip (fed vocals only from another mix bus) would be a big help.


What kind of levels are you hoping to achieve? 

[Jay Barracato]

I fight with many techs over this. Basically, it is difficult to visualize an compressional wave expanding as a sphere as it encounters and reflects off of a boundary.

So one way to model this, is to imagine the boundary is not there, and the reflection is coming from a second source placed on a line that is at a right angle to the boundary and at an equal distance from the boundary as the original source.

You can then figure the cancellations due to the two sources. The greatest degree of cancellation ( the greatest difference in the time of arrival) is when you are standing on the line between the two sources and perpendicular to the boundary. The least amount of cancellation is standing on the line of the boundary.

This is the same reason that lifting the subs from the floor up 4 feet to the stage does not create significant cancellations for someone standing on the floor in front of the subs. The significant cancellations would be perpendicular to the floor, I.e. above the subs.

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[Scott Holtzman]

I fight with many techs over this. Basically, it is difficult to visualize an compressional wave expanding as a sphere as it encounters and reflects off of a boundary.

So one way to model this, is to imagine the boundary is not there, and the reflection is coming from a second source placed on a line that is at a right angle to the boundary and at an equal distance from the boundary as the original source.

You can then figure the cancellations due to the two sources. The greatest degree of cancellation ( the greatest difference in the time of arrival) is when you are standing on the line between the two sources and perpendicular to the boundary. The least amount of cancellation is standing on the line of the boundary.

This is the same reason that lifting the subs from the floor up 4 feet to the stage does not create significant cancellations for someone standing on the floor in front of the subs. The significant cancellations would be perpendicular to the floor, I.e. above the subs.

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Wow I want some of your techs.  We are still working on not leaving the lights on in the van so I don't have to crawl underneath and drop a battery box while laying in a puddle of slush, salt and snow trying to jump start a friggin' diesel.  Wow that felt like I have a resentment.

[Jay Barracato]

Wow I want some of your techs.  We are still working on not leaving the lights on in the van so I don't have to crawl underneath and drop a battery box while laying in a puddle of slush, salt and snow trying to jump start a friggin' diesel.  Wow that felt like I have a resentment.

Usually it was a tech providing a system for me while I was traveling with a band.

Sometimes we forget that us part time guys also have some other full time expertise. I happen to be a chemistry/physics teacher with 25 years in the high school classroom, and 17 years at the college level. The more someone argues an indefensible position the more likely they are to get the whole detailed explanation, whether they want it or not.

For the old timers, it reminds me of a time someone told Andy Peters he could not possibly understand digitizing data because he was just a part time FOH mixer and the other guy was a full time studio guru. (Andy's full time gig is... Digitizing data).

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[Jamin Lynch]

What makes you think the speakers would be "too high" on the stage?


Aesthetics aside the higher the better.  The difference in distance between the people in the back and the people in the front is reduced. 


You will have to have the speakers louder to cover the larger space so you want the speakers as far away from the front row as you can.


Skrim's can be used to make them look nice.


What kind of tops are they?  Some have built in tilters.  If not you really should think about some tilters.  If you can't get them tilted then some small fills on the stage lip (fed vocals only from another mix bus) would be a big help.


What kind of levels are you hoping to achieve?

The stage is 5ft. My stands are 6ft min. I think 11ft would be over every bodies head. No way to tilt them down.

Doesn't need to be real loud. Just a moderate volume.

I've done this event a few times, but it was always at a different location. Every body is toward the front. Hardly anyone in the back 1/3 of the seating area

Tops are VP7215DP/95. Subs are VP7118DP

[Scott Holtzman]

Usually it was a tech providing a system for me while I was traveling with a band.

Sometimes we forget that us part time guys also have some other full time expertise. I happen to be a chemistry/physics teacher with 25 years in the high school classroom, and 17 years at the college level. The more someone argues an indefensible position the more likely they are to get the whole detailed explanation, whether they want it or not.

For the old timers, it reminds me of a time someone told Andy Peters he could not possibly understand digitizing data because he was just a part time FOH mixer and the other guy was a full time studio guru. (Andy's full time gig is... Digitizing data).

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

It can also result in others thinking you are condescending.  I don't know if I have changed or the world has changed.


Same here, I have spent my life in the tech trades, telecom and networking.  When a guy 1/3 my age tries to argue with me when I tell him to do something I don't react well to it.


Some of the best learning experiences I had from the people I respected at their age were "do overs".  At the time I didn't know why they were making me do something. 


Now I am just an arrogant, condescending asshole. 

[Jay Barracato]

It can also result in others thinking you are condescending.  I don't know if I have changed or the world has changed.


Same here, I have spent my life in the tech trades, telecom and networking.  When a guy 1/3 my age tries to argue with me when I tell him to do something I don't react well to it.


Some of the best learning experiences I had from the people I respected at their age were "do overs".  At the time I didn't know why they were making me do something. 


Now I am just an arrogant, condescending asshole.

Very few people not in the field understand what drives teachers and I can assure you that the condescending ones who want to build their own ego at others expense don't last.

Instead, it seems to mm e to be a joy in specific knowledge that creates a desire to share.

After all that is the foundation of the forums as well.

Trust me, there are many things I understand deeply but feel no passion to share. To me condescending is the person who does the stage whisper, " look at what that idiot is doing, I can do so much better."

I was actually on the receiving end of a great experience. The band I was with was playing a show in a theater at an upscale private school with a brand new install. Since it was new, they hired the guy who did the install to come out as the system tech. He patiently sat there listening to my pink noise as I went over an extensive session of measuring. When I was done he asked me what I had found. I told him I thought it sounded great from the beginning and I wanted to see how a good sounding room would measure. That prompted a teaching session where he pointed out a couple of things about my work flow and the general difference between tuning a system and confirming the tuning of the system. We both ended up working right through the catered dinner because we got so wrapped up in what we were doing.

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[Scott Holtzman]

Very few people not in the field understand what drives teachers and I can assure you that the condescending ones who want to build their own ego at others expense don't last.

Instead, it seems to mm e to be a joy in specific knowledge that creates a desire to share.

I am not a teacher I am a boss and a business owner.  I am paying them, they are not paying me.  If someone shows the smallest desire to learn I will go to the ends of the earth to work with them as I will usually learn more in the process than they do.  However 2 hours to show with a half dozen gating issues facing me to solve the last thing I have on my mind is the sensitivities of the person I am assigning work to.


If you have an issue with what I said or how I said it, once the job is done I will be more than happy to discuss the interaction and give an alternate process a fair hearing. 


Huge difference.

[Stephen Kirby]

The stage is 5ft. My stands are 6ft min. I think 11ft would be over every bodies head. No way to tilt them down.

With tops that don't have a down tilt I would really invest in a set of BT-12 tilters.  One of the most useful things in my kit.  From keeping excessive reflections off the ceiling in small bars (and there's one I play at that has an old fashioned embossed tin ceiling) to being able to crank 'em up high and aim at an outdoor crowd, these things are awesome.

[Tim McCulloch]

When a guy 1/3 my age tries to argue with me when I tell him to do something I don't react well to it.

Someone here on the forums had a signature line to the effect of :  In the amateur's mind there are many potential solutions; to the expert mind, there are few.

To those playing along at home, every day you should practice some aspect of doing a gig - even if eventually it's only in your mind.  Record some of your local bands to multi track, pick 3 songs and really learn to MIX them.  Next time you're out with that band have them do one of those as your sound check song.    Figure out a better or faster way wire up the downstage, or to pack it up better... something.

If we expect the guitarist to practice, so should we.

[ProSoundWeb Community]