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Author Topic: Mixing different types of subs  (Read 10123 times)

Nathan Riddle

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Re: Mixing different types of subs
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2017, 03:00:05 pm »

I'm going to leave my last post up just to acknowledge and learn from my own ignorance.

So you're saying that if I make a NL4 to bare wire adapter and connect the +\- 1 together and the +\-2 together that it will prevent the drivers from moving? Won't the cabinets just resonate at the frequencies they are tuned to when presented with those frequencies? Or does with prevent "passive radiation" as you call it?

Forgive my brain stopping. Yeah, I hadn't considered the NL4 aspect...perhaps moving the subs away is easier? That's up to you.

Obviously best, is going to be removing the speakers all together.

Someone smarter than I can explain the resonating and radiation etc. All I have seen is not shorting them out and leaving two different speakers in the same area close together can skew your results.

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I've seen guys get chewed out on different  forums for not supplying proper measurements or using the software incorrectly.

But I've got to start somewhere. So until I meet up with somebody local that I can learn from I'll keep posting here. (I'm in SoCal) It's all fun to me, but not nearly as scientific as I'd like to be.

I agree. Just saying, be prepared to be yelled at :P That's why I consider myself still in the learning/don't really know what I'm doing phase in measurements.


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This is from the other day when I compared the two stacks. It's amazing what the difference in processors will do. The SLS rig is on a XTA DP266 and the EV's are in a Dc One. The sub filters in the XTA are what I made in the DC one and I didn't realize how different they sounded until I had them side by side.

If I'm understanding you correctly you were comparing the DSP's on two different rigs?
I'd say too many variables to say it was the 'DSP' that made the difference.

If you're saying you compared two different rigs and are just commenting that the differing DSP is interesting.
Then I'd say, what are you trying to accomplish?

There's been a few threads around with JR & others talking about the differences in the DSP and how basically all of them are different (magnitude, phase, delay) even though they say/do the same exact thing.

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I'm always interested in learning new things, is there a book that you recommend or a course to take somewhere. Maybe online?

I've sorta been compiling a list.

https://timobeckmangeluid.wordpress.com
https://www.merlijnvanveen.nl/en/
www.rationalacoustics.com/training/
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,78.0.html
Bob McCarthy's book; "Sound Systems: Design and Optimization: Modern Techniques and Tools for Sound System Design and Alignment" 3rd Edition
Nathan Lively's book.
https://www.rationalacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Smaart-v7-IR-Guide.pdf
http://www.rationalacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Getting-Started-with-Smaart-v7.4.pdf
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 03:08:21 pm by Nathan Riddle »
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Michael Gorecki

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Re: Mixing different types of subs
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2017, 03:20:50 pm »

Forgive my brain stopping. Yeah, I hadn't considered the NL4 aspect...perhaps moving the subs away is easier? That's up to you.

Obviously best, is going to be removing the speakers all together.

Someone smarter than I can explain the resonating and radiation etc. All I have seen is not shorting them out and leaving two different speakers in the same area close together can skew your results.

I agree. Just saying, be prepared to be yelled at :P That's why I consider myself still in the learning/don't really know what I'm doing phase in measurements.


If I'm understanding you correctly you were comparing the DSP's on two different rigs?
I'd say too many variables to say it was the 'DSP' that made the difference.

If you're saying you compared two different rigs and are just commenting that the differing DSP is interesting.
Then I'd say, what are you trying to accomplish?

There's been a few threads around with JR & others talking about the differences in the DSP and how basically all of them are different (magnitude, phase, delay) even though they say/do the same exact thing.

I've sorta been compiling a list.

https://timobeckmangeluid.wordpress.com
https://www.merlijnvanveen.nl/en/
www.rationalacoustics.com/training/
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,78.0.html
Bob McCarthy's book; "Sound Systems: Design and Optimization: Modern Techniques and Tools for Sound System Design and Alignment" 3rd Edition
Nathan Lively's book.
https://www.rationalacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Smaart-v7-IR-Guide.pdf
http://www.rationalacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Getting-Started-with-Smaart-v7.4.pdf


But if I make a couple of "short cables" could I just connect them to the leads and short out the whole stack of subs?


The original purpose of my test was to see the difference in output between the two top cabinets that we own. Nothing scientific, we just turned the speakers on and walked around the cul-de-sac.  I just happened to notice how different the subs sounded with identical processor settings.

I recently purchased this system used from a friend and am experimenting with different configurations and trying maximize the flexibility of my current systems. 

I've been thinking of selling off gear to make all of my amp racks the same so I don't have to worry about matching systems. But that's a different conversation.


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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Mixing different types of subs
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2017, 03:38:29 pm »

But if I make a couple of "short cables" could I just connect them to the leads and short out the whole stack of subs?

Yeah I'd say just parallel all 4 and short one. Should work just fine.

The original purpose of my test was to see the difference in output between the two top cabinets that we own. Nothing scientific, we just turned the speakers on and walked around the cul-de-sac.  I just happened to notice how different the subs sounded with identical processor settings.

I recently purchased this system used from a friend and am experimenting with different configurations and trying maximize the flexibility of my current systems. 

I've been thinking of selling off gear to make all of my amp racks the same so I don't have to worry about matching systems. But that's a different conversation.


Ahh, that makes more sense.

Good luck with it!

I can't wait until I'm doing this full time and I can dedicate some time to actually measuring everything I touch :)

Like why does pre-amp 1 sound different than 2 or eq1 than eq2, etc....
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Geert Friedhof

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Re: Mixing different types of subs
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2017, 04:03:46 pm »

Why not just use your 8 subs, and put the horns in the middle, and start with only your subs/stacks. Have some kind of rta running. Then turn on the horns slowly, and watch your rta. My guess is that the horns will eat lows (phase problems). Than delay your stacks to the horns. Watch the rta.

If time permits: sinesweep them, and watch. I would look for biggest gain at 60-70 Hz. If you can Matrix: Try to get the horns to operate to about 200 Hz. It will make life easier on your tops. Tops: crossover not lower than 120Hz. maybe 100.  Phase correction alreay done above.

It is EDM: You need all the lows you can get. Or recone your subs...

PS: Looking at the specs of the SLS tops: 4 each side seams to me a bit anemic: 125dBx4=137dB...
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 04:34:34 pm by Geert Friedhof »
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Michael Gorecki

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Re: Mixing different types of subs
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2017, 04:27:49 pm »

I have a DR260 that I was going to use to align the subs together. Possibly do two mono sends and send separate Aux sends for the subs. I would assume there will
Be some overlap but I was thinking of running the TS 42 from 180-160 down to 60-50 and using the GP218 down to 30ish.

I need to stack the subs 3 high to get proper height for the array pack so I'm not sure what to do with the other subs. Initially i was thinking of doing a stick of 2 in the middle, until I was offered these horns. Now I'm just thinking 6 218 and the 4 horns.


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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Mixing different types of subs
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2017, 04:35:01 pm »

I'd do the stack of 3 and one to the side like this:
_
=|

I would want as much headroom so the drivers stay nice and cool as possible for EDM.

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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Mixing different types of subs
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2017, 05:00:53 pm »

"Short the speaker outputs" to me means "turn off the amp"

If the speaker is still connected to the amp it's *likely* that will be enough.

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But it sounds like I should move the other speakers away. Do you think that throwing a couple packing blankets and sandbags in the horns will deaden them enough.

My experience is that you would need to move them 20 feet or more, and then you don't really *know* for sure, do you?  Why go to the trouble when you can just short the speaker?

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I planned on laying the horns down (horns out) and double stacking. Unless having the four upright is a better option. Again I've never deployed a set of horns. Just going off what I've seen.

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Much is made of what parts of the horns should be most directly adjacent.  The actual answer is that if the acoustic centers of both subs are within 1/4 wavelength there will be summation.  Distance matters, vent location (if a vented horn) does not matter by and of itself.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Mixing different types of subs
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2017, 05:09:52 pm »



There's been a few threads around with JR & others talking about the differences in the DSP and how basically all of them are different (magnitude, phase, delay) even though they say/do the same exact thing.


Sometimes all you have to do is change 1 parameter and all the others are correct.

Sometimes all are correct.

Sometimes you have to change all of them.

Believe me- it is all over the map.  I deal with it all the time.

It even varies between different series in the same manufacturers line.

So not all of Brand X are the same numbers.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Mixing different types of subs
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2017, 05:11:34 pm »


PS: Looking at the specs of the SLS tops: 4 each side seams to me a bit anemic: 125dBx4=137dB...
That would assume PERFECT coupling-which is not going to happen.

So the real SPL will be lower.
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Michael Gorecki

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Re: Mixing different types of subs
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2017, 06:10:11 pm »

Sometimes all you have to do is change 1 parameter and all the others are correct.

Sometimes all are correct.

Sometimes you have to change all of them.

Believe me- it is all over the map.  I deal with it all the time.

It even varies between different series in the same manufacturers line.

So not all of Brand X are the same numbers.

To me this seems like if Stanley, Dewalt and Bosch all made measuring tapes that were measured in inches and feet but none of them were the same. How do they get away with this crap? And how do you guys that work with the gear on a daily basis still put up with this?

I thought about adding the 4th sub on each side but I'm not entirely sure about the placement.

Lastly, I ended up using 4 boxes because I felt that anymore was pointless. I don't have a way to safely angle them downward so more top boxes is just a taller line being thrown to the back of the room. But I'll have enough amps to do 6 a side without bringing another amp rack.


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Re: Mixing different types of subs
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2017, 06:10:11 pm »


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