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Author Topic: Multiple 2.4ghz microphone channels  (Read 4901 times)

andrewdbowes

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Multiple 2.4ghz microphone channels
« on: January 13, 2017, 11:29:10 pm »

Hey there crew, anyone have suggestions or experience with bundling multiple digital mic systems together?  I have six Sennheiser EW D1 systems and I'm not sure if mounting them together in a rack is a good idea or not.  What is the school of thought for combining 2.4ghz antennae together?  Anyone know of any products like boosters or directional antennas that are for 2.4ghz systems?

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Robert Lofgren

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Re: Multiple 2.4ghz microphone channels
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2017, 06:05:51 am »

Line6 have an antenna combiner and also active antennas for the 2.4ghz band.
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andrewdbowes

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Re: Multiple 2.4ghz microphone channels
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2017, 01:03:21 pm »

Line6 have an antenna combiner and also active antennas for the 2.4ghz band.
I've seen these Line6 accessories on their website but would Line6 2.4ghz wireless accessories be cross compatable Sennheiser's 2.4ghz wireless products? 

I've read that 2.4ghz wireless is less affected by intermodulation than their radio mic counterparts so does this allow me to use a number of wireless receivers clustered without issues?

I'm trying to keep things fairly simple.  Does it make sense to rack mount them all into one rack or should I be spacing them out a certin wave length from each other for least self interference?

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andrewdbowes

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Re: Multiple 2.4ghz microphone channels
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2017, 02:33:11 pm »



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Don Boomer

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Re: Multiple 2.4ghz microphone channels
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2017, 01:25:58 am »

Digital wireless for the most part are immune to IM problems, but it really doesn't have anything to do with the 2.4g band.

I can't think of any reason the Line 6 antenna distro shouldn't work with the Sennheiser mics. With 8 systems I would certainly recommend using an antenna distro system and avoid having an antenna farm.

Line 6 makes an 360° and a 180° plate antenna with a built in line amp. Or you could use the 2.4g helical from RF Venue. It doesn't have the line amp (which would raise the noise floor) but it does have about 12dB of gain and the benefits od a helical system.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 07:13:24 pm by Don Boomer »
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Don Boomer
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andrewdbowes

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Re: Multiple 2.4ghz microphone channels
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2017, 01:33:07 am »

Digital wireless for the most part are immune to IM problems, but it really doesn't have anything to do with the 2.4g band.

I can't think of any reason the Line 6 antenna distro shouldn't work with the Sennheiser mics. With 8 systems I would certainly recommend using an antenna distro system and avoid having an antenna farm.

Line 6 makes an 360° and a 180° plate antenna with a built in line amp. Or you could use the 2.4g helical from RF Venue. It doesn't have the line amp (which would raise the noise floor) but it does have about 9dB of gain and the benefits od a helical system.
Thanks very much for your response Don!  If it were you, which solution would go with?  This is a new topic for me which there doesn't appear to be a lot of accessable information available.

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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: Multiple 2.4ghz microphone channels
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2017, 09:26:06 am »

I don’t know if it has changed but I remember reading that there is a limit as to how many 2.4gmics will work together and I thought it was 6 or 8. And I also thought one of the other considerations was that these systems are more powerful then standard WiFi and will over power any other WiFi devices making it impossible to use anything else WiFi in the 2.4g range in the room.  This includes Tablets or phones to control digital consoles and any WiFi (in the 2.4g range) in the room that your audience might use for their phones. Just something to keep in mind.

Don, Didn’t you used to work for Line6 and do you know the answers to these statement?
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Multiple 2.4ghz microphone channels
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2017, 12:47:11 pm »

I don’t know if it has changed but I remember reading that there is a limit as to how many 2.4gmics will work together and I thought it was 6 or 8. And I also thought one of the other considerations was that these systems are more powerful then standard WiFi and will over power any other WiFi devices making it impossible to use anything else WiFi in the 2.4g range in the room.  This includes Tablets or phones to control digital consoles and any WiFi (in the 2.4g range) in the room that your audience might use for their phones. Just something to keep in mind.

Don, Didn’t you used to work for Line6 and do you know the answers to these statement?

For Sennheiser the answer is up to 15 systems although that is up to 6 in standard configuration and up to 15 in multi-channel configuration. 
The limiting factor is going to be how crowded the 2.4GHz spectrum is and if there is room available.

Lee
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Lee Buckalew
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Multiple 2.4ghz microphone channels
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2017, 12:48:32 pm »

We use 5 Line 6 mics together and have had decent results-though my experience is that a WiFi router will take interfer with the mics.  The real headache is the failure mode-they seem to be fine for a quick check-but when someone starts using it they drop out.  Anytime a new router/access point is added in the room you'll need to verify reception.  We wound up going to 5 ghz for mission critical wifi  and hope no one gets too close with a hotspot.

A staff member purchsed some GLDX mics because a "sales technician" told him we shouldn't add more Line 6.  The GLDX were unusable-constantly dropping out and re-linking.

The Sennheiser manual says "up to 15 systems in an optimal situation".  In this day and age when will that ever happen?  No WiFi, no hotspots no bluetooth in the room?  Another red flag to me is in the troubleshooting section, dropouts can be caused by holding the mic wrong-so now I have another item to train talent on and butt heads over?  Also, the GLDX would try to relink any time the mics got within 6-8" of each other.

We use the Line 6's with the factory jumpers for antenna's.  For up to six systems, I might be OK with a 2.4G system, but I'll fight to keep any more out of our system.
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Steve Swaffer

andrewdbowes

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Re: Multiple 2.4ghz microphone channels
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2017, 03:09:38 pm »

Yes the Shure GLXD systems are terrible, those were our first try at digital but there was so much dropout we returned all four of our units.  The sales staff at our Long & McQuade Musical Instruments were kind enough to accept the used mics back at a full refund.  Obviously ULXD4 would be nice but we would only be able to afford a couple channels max. 

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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Multiple 2.4ghz microphone channels
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2017, 06:42:14 pm »

I guess the point I was making-knowing you are looking at Sennheiser not Shure and having no desire to bad mouth Shure is that the problem is not the mics, but the environment.  It sounds like they use a similar method-perhaps Sennheiser has a better implementation, but any mic that adjusts it level/frequency trying to avoid interference is going to have the same problems in a busy WiFi environment.  And anymore, you don't have true test of the RF situation (at least in the 2.4G range) until the audience arrives-which as inconvenient time to realize things aren't linking and playing nice.
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Steve Swaffer

Don Boomer

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Re: Multiple 2.4ghz microphone channels
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2017, 07:30:28 pm »

I can really only speak to the Line 6 systems. Wi-fi itself doesn't interfere with them (in RF2 mode). But wi-fi too close to the receiver's antennas may overload the input section. V75s are much better at this than V70s were (different filtering). I've used 8 of them sitting about 10' underneath 2 enterprise access points with no issues.

Picking your antennas carefully can help a lot. If you can focus your antenna pickup right to where your transmitters are and no where else it can help a lot. But that's not always possible. The Line 6 antennas are essentially 360° and 180° so they may bee too broad. The RFV CP2.4 is about 68°. Just have to match the tool to the job.

As I said before I would definitely be using a distro if all/most of your mics are in one place. An that can be a problem for Line 6 systems ... near/far issues. So if you have 6 mics on stage and one rover, that rover wants to be on its own antennas. But if all your mics are relatively in the same place the Line 6 has a big advantage in that it calculates the distance and the receiver sensitivity tracks that distance. Very cool most of the time.
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Don Boomer
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Xiang Cao

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Re: Multiple 2.4ghz microphone channels
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2017, 08:54:58 pm »

check out the new glxd advanced system:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAWFjlrqlSk

Will this help?
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Multiple 2.4ghz microphone channels
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2017, 08:07:54 am »



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I am surprised that Sennheiser would suggest the rear antenna option!
The first solution seems OK and would be even better if the receivers were offset, odds on left, evens on right.
The big problem with rack mounted antennas is that they usually end up sitting on the floor or some other place that is too low.
Whatever antenna solution you use, make sure they are up high enough for line of sight to the transmitters.
2.4 gig is not "special" in any way. Same as any RF. Best practices still apply.
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Jeremy Young

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Re: Multiple 2.4ghz microphone channels
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2017, 07:14:23 pm »

This is where the Audio-Technica System 10 Pro comes in, they enable you to remote locate the receivers over cat5 cable for optimal placement. I've never used them personally, but I'm eyeing them up for a reluctant investment to meet my customers requests for wireless. I much prefer copper. I can't seem to reliably rent more than 1 channel on short notice.

My main fear with any 2.4ghz system is proximity to my wireless access point.  They (receivers) will always need to be patched to my idr32 rack on stage, which is where my 5ghz netgear lives currently.  If I keep my 2.4ghz turned off on the mixer access point, would I be safe to locate four channels of 2.4ghz wireless receivers within 12"?  Would an RF explorer and a rented 2.4ghz wireless mic be the right tools to test that with? Or are these hopeless tasks in reality since the venue and audience are the biggest offenders/variables?

I work with a band that runs a single shure glxd system and the only issue we've experienced so far was line-of-sight related and easily solved.

Sorry to derail the thread slightly but it seems I may have stumbled on the right folks to ask. Anyone have any clue what the future density of 2.4ghz might look like? Think ballrooms in hotels and urban outdoor venues like streets and squares in a downtown environment.
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Brown Bear Sound
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Re: Multiple 2.4ghz microphone channels
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2017, 07:14:23 pm »


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