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Author Topic: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini  (Read 4847 times)

William Schnake

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Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« on: January 10, 2017, 08:57:21 am »

Good morning all.  I have been repurposing some of my computers in order for us to become more efficient without having to purchase new hardware.  We are wanting to setup a Dante network between Midas Pro2 w/Klark Technic DN9650 with a KT-DANTe 64 card and a Yamaha QL5.  I also want to offer live recording services as an add-on to our regular production services.

Here is what I am thinking:

Computer - Mac Mini  (late 2013 w/512 gig SSD and 8 gig of ram)
Software - Parallels for Mac/Windows 10/Dante/Smaart 8.?/Cubase 9.?/EAW software/RCF Software/dbx software for driverack/Midas Pro2 and Yamaha            QL5 software.
Audio Interface - Focusrite Pro24 (running firewire 800 to the Mac Mini)
Switches - I am not sure currently probably 4 Netgear gigabit switch with PoE.  Two will be for front of house for Dante and two will be at Monitor World.

I would put together a rack that would house the Mac Mini/Focusrite Pro 24/(2) NetGear switches one for Dante 1 and one for Dante 2 redundancy/UPS power supply/rack drawer.  This rack would reside at FoH.

A second rack would be put together for the two switches for the Dante Connection in Monitor World.

All four switches will be matched and have the same software version. 

Having never setup a Dante Network before, am I on the right track or has the train been derailed before I get started?  This is a feasability questions.

Thanks for your input.

Bill
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Thomas Dameron

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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2017, 09:57:11 am »

I don't have any experience running DVS over parallels but that raises a red flag.  I would definitely run your recordings on the Mac OS. 

In this scenario you don't need any backup switches.  The Mac will only be on the primary network, so only the QL and the 9650 will be able to use the backup network.  Unless you are planning on adding other dante hardware and want to go ahead and get the infrastructure in place I would skip the secondary network switches. 

thomas d.
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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2017, 11:18:26 am »

What's the Focusrite for?  Dante Virtual Soundcard allows multitrack recordings and playback over the Dante network? Are you thinking it will be used for local monitoring and playback?  It won't work concurrently with DVS

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Mac Kerr

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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2017, 12:32:07 pm »

Good morning all.  I have been repurposing some of my computers in order for us to become more efficient without having to purchase new hardware.  We are wanting to setup a Dante network between Midas Pro2 w/Klark Technic DN9650 with a KT-DANTe 64 card and a Yamaha QL5.  I also want to offer live recording services as an add-on to our regular production services.

Here is what I am thinking:

Computer - Mac Mini  (late 2013 w/512 gig SSD and 8 gig of ram)
Software - Parallels for Mac/Windows 10/Dante/Smaart 8.?/Cubase 9.?/EAW software/RCF Software/dbx software for driverack/Midas Pro2 and Yamaha            QL5 software.
Audio Interface - Focusrite Pro24 (running firewire 800 to the Mac Mini)
Switches - I am not sure currently probably 4 Netgear gigabit switch with PoE.  Two will be for front of house for Dante and two will be at Monitor World.

I would put together a rack that would house the Mac Mini/Focusrite Pro 24/(2) NetGear switches one for Dante 1 and one for Dante 2 redundancy/UPS power supply/rack drawer.  This rack would reside at FoH.

A second rack would be put together for the two switches for the Dante Connection in Monitor World.

All four switches will be matched and have the same software version. 

Having never setup a Dante Network before, am I on the right track or has the train been derailed before I get started?  This is a feasability questions.

Thanks for your input.

Bill

What is the Focusrite for? Why the Parallels/Win10 setup? What exactly are you trying to accomplish here?

More info about your goal will help.

Mac
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Thomas Dameron

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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2017, 01:37:05 pm »

What is the Focusrite for? Why the Parallels/Win10 setup? What exactly are you trying to accomplish here?

More info about your goal will help.

Mac

I thought the same thing but maybe just to get Smaart in and out without tying up console i/o?  I usually use console inputs for my mics and re-allocate them once the room is setup.  Once the show I rolling I just take an input off the solo bus, but I don't know what the OP had in mind.

thomas d.
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William Schnake

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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2017, 04:47:35 pm »

What's the Focusrite for?  Dante Virtual Soundcard allows multitrack recordings and playback over the Dante network? Are you thinking it will be used for local monitoring and playback?  It won't work concurrently with DVS
Craig, you are correct, I would be running the DVS on the Mac side not the Windows/Parallels side.  I am going to expand the system as I upgrade my wireless mic rig.  We are currently using the ULX/P and will be moving to the ULX/D systems most likely. 

Thanks
Bill
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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2017, 04:49:15 pm »

What's the Focusrite for?  Dante Virtual Soundcard allows multitrack recordings and playback over the Dante network? Are you thinking it will be used for local monitoring and playback?  It won't work concurrently with DVS
Craig, I assumed that I would need to use it for the input to Smaart.  Maybe I don't.

Bill
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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2017, 04:53:10 pm »

Make sure that your network switches doesn't have energy saving support or that you can at least disable it.

On the mac side you need to tweak your network settings or you might not get full network speed.
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William Schnake

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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2017, 04:53:28 pm »

What is the Focusrite for? Why the Parallels/Win10 setup? What exactly are you trying to accomplish here?

More info about your goal will help.

Mac
Hi Mac, the only reason for running Windows 10 is that I use some EAW software and dbx software that is still Windows only, thus why I need to run Parallels.  I was thinking that I would use the Focusrite for input to Smaart 8.?.

My main goal is to get a Dante Network up and running so that I can use it to record shows as well as start building a backbone for the Shure ULX/D wireless system that we are about to purchase.  As far as the other software, I am trying to make it so that I only have to have one computer with me rather than a Windows machine and a Mac.  Currently the Midas Pro2 software only runs on a Mac.

Thanks
Bill
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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2017, 04:56:45 pm »

Make sure that your network switches doesn't have energy saving support or that you can at least disable it.

On the mac side you need to tweak your network settings or you might not get full network speed.
Thanks for the input.  I did know about the no power saving support on the switches.  Do you think the Mac Mini is up to the task as described or should I be looking for something with a little more punch?

Bill
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2017, 05:01:55 pm »

Hi Mac, the only reason for running Windows 10 is that I use some EAW software and dbx software that is still Windows only, thus why I need to run Parallels.  I was thinking that I would use the Focusrite for input to Smaart 8.?.

My main goal is to get a Dante Network up and running so that I can use it to record shows as well as start building a backbone for the Shure ULX/D wireless system that we are about to purchase.  As far as the other software, I am trying to make it so that I only have to have one computer with me rather than a Windows machine and a Mac.  Currently the Midas Pro2 software only runs on a Mac.

You can easily use DVS as your audio I/O for the Mac. I am not a fan of connecting the ULXD via Dante, although I've worked on plenty of shows where it's done. It is a hit or miss proposition in my experience getting control of the mic output level that you need to use instead of a mic pre, particularly if you are also recording. I would always prefer to attach the mics to the console analog into a mic input so I have easy level control that will alway work. The Dante feed will be fine to record a multitrack that will be remixed later.

The Mac can easily handle the audio stuff as well as quite a lot going on on the Windows side.

Mac
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William Schnake

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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2017, 05:10:01 pm »

You can easily use DVS as your audio I/O for the Mac. I am not a fan of connecting the ULXD via Dante, although I've worked on plenty of shows where it's done. It is a hit or miss proposition in my experience getting control of the mic output level that you need to use instead of a mic pre, particularly if you are also recording. I would always prefer to attach the mics to the console analog into a mic input so I have easy level control that will alway work. The Dante feed will be fine to record a multitrack that will be remixed later.

The Mac can easily handle the audio stuff as well as quite a lot going on on the Windows side.

Mac
Mac, I didn't think about using the console inputs and a set of outs to go to SMAART, but it sounds like a better way of doing what I am wanting to do.

Thanks for the input.

Bill
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2017, 07:22:51 pm »

Mac, I didn't think about using the console inputs and a set of outs to go to SMAART, but it sounds like a better way of doing what I am wanting to do.

Thanks for the input.

Bill

Mac is talking about wireless mics, not Smaart mics.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2017, 07:38:08 pm »

Mac is talking about wireless mics, not Smaart mics.

Both really. First sentence about Smaart, rest about patching ULXDs.

Mac
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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2017, 09:15:01 pm »



Having never setup a Dante Network before, am I on the right track or has the train been derailed before I get started?  This is a feasability questions.

Thanks for your input.

Bill
Bill, you can get some basic Dante training on the Audinate site https://www.audinate.com/resources/training-and-tutorials
I just did the Level 1 and Level 2 training and it was well worth it. Level 1 can definitely be done on line and I believe they are working towards that goal for Level 2.
Best,
Ike
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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2017, 11:48:38 pm »

Bill, you can get some basic Dante training on the Audinate site https://www.audinate.com/resources/training-and-tutorials
Best,
Ike
Thanks Ike, I appreciate the info.

Bill
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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2017, 07:20:38 am »

The Mac can easily handle the audio stuff as well as quite a lot going on on the Windows side.

Mac
Thanks for the help everyone.  I am going to start getting the Mac Mini setup this week.  I will probably have more questions so bare with me as I work through this the first time.

Have a great day everyone.

Bill
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Bryan Hargrave

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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2017, 06:52:36 pm »

my $.02,

Tracks Live. It's free and you can give people the raw wave files. Easiest way to record a show, hands down. Cubase, sure, if you feel like paying for it and offering a mixed product. Tracks if you want to give them the freedom to mix their own show on their preferred DAW. Tracks interfaces with DVS for 64 channels. Also, Reaper as a DAW is only 60 bucks.

http://www.waves.com/downloads/tracks-live

As for the rest of your setup... no reason you can't do what you want and more. I don't use a mac but I do use one single windows laptop for all of my audio software. Dante Controller, DVS or Via, Wireless Workbench, Wireless Systems Manager, Tracks Live, Smaart, All of my consoles software, Lake, PodWare, Cafe, Intellidrive, LSP 500 Pro controller, Ease, and whatever I'm forgetting. The truth is, most of that won't need to run during a show unless you are monitoring which is kind of redundant unless the gear you are monitoring is hiding in a closet or something. Even then, monitoring doesn't even really make my little Lenovo breathe heavy. DVS writing 64 channels to my drive... that will make it sweat. If I was going to run your setup, I would just make sure I ran as much as I could on the native OS and then whatever is left on the emulated OS. Also, if it doesn't need to run during the show, close it.

As far as your network switches, you can blow all the money you want on great stuff (mine are Cisco SG-300 10 port) but when it comes to that secondary network, you don't need to care about directing traffic. It will only be running Dante and will not need you to prioritize. Ubiquiti makes a great little managed guy called the Toughswitch which will be more than enough for your secondary network. Very little to mess with and mess up. Audinate doesn't even spec a managed switch that I can remember. As mentioned by another user, your computer's Dante won't be redundant. Just something to keep in mind. You might want to have a second computer to run a redundant recording (i know i know, you wanted to get it all to one computer) if you are going to be using that as a selling point. It is something that I made sure to do when I was charging for a multitracked show.

I'm probably doing everything wrong.

I could probably type all day. I will stop now.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 06:56:11 pm by Bryan Hargrave »
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William Schnake

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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2017, 08:22:25 am »

my $.02,

Tracks Live. It's free and you can give people the raw wave files. Easiest way to record a show, hands down. Cubase, sure, if you feel like paying for it and offering a mixed product. Tracks if you want to give them the freedom to mix their own show on their preferred DAW. Tracks interfaces with DVS for 64 channels. Also, Reaper as a DAW is only 60 bucks.

http://www.waves.com/downloads/tracks-live

As for the rest of your setup... no reason you can't do what you want and more. I don't use a mac but I do use one single windows laptop for all of my audio software. Dante Controller, DVS or Via, Wireless Workbench, Wireless Systems Manager, Tracks Live, Smaart, All of my consoles software, Lake, PodWare, Cafe, Intellidrive, LSP 500 Pro controller, Ease, and whatever I'm forgetting. The truth is, most of that won't need to run during a show unless you are monitoring which is kind of redundant unless the gear you are monitoring is hiding in a closet or something. Even then, monitoring doesn't even really make my little Lenovo breathe heavy. DVS writing 64 channels to my drive... that will make it sweat. If I was going to run your setup, I would just make sure I ran as much as I could on the native OS and then whatever is left on the emulated OS. Also, if it doesn't need to run during the show, close it.

As far as your network switches, you can blow all the money you want on great stuff (mine are Cisco SG-300 10 port) but when it comes to that secondary network, you don't need to care about directing traffic. It will only be running Dante and will not need you to prioritize. Ubiquiti makes a great little managed guy called the Toughswitch which will be more than enough for your secondary network. Very little to mess with and mess up. Audinate doesn't even spec a managed switch that I can remember. As mentioned by another user, your computer's Dante won't be redundant. Just something to keep in mind. You might want to have a second computer to run a redundant recording (i know i know, you wanted to get it all to one computer) if you are going to be using that as a selling point. It is something that I made sure to do when I was charging for a multitracked show.

I'm probably doing everything wrong.

I could probably type all day. I will stop now.
Bryan, thanks for all of the great advice.  I thought that Dante wanted all of the switches to be the same and on the same firmware level?  I may have misunderstood that.  Also, am I correct when I say that Dante and for instance Crown System Architect can run on the same switches and CAT6 cable?

Thanks
Bill
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2017, 09:02:38 am »

Bryan, thanks for all of the great advice.  I thought that Dante wanted all of the switches to be the same and on the same firmware level?  I may have misunderstood that.  Also, am I correct when I say that Dante and for instance Crown System Architect can run on the same switches and CAT6 cable?

Thanks
Bill

They can if the Dante and Audio Architect (you should no longer be using System Architect really...it hasn't been updated in 4 years) devices are all running on the same subnet.   Dante primary auto-discovers to 169.254.X.X, which is also where crown amps will live natively out of the box.  I personally like to keep my amps on static IP's and haven't gotten over "a bad experience" with setting Dante to static, so i just run two NICs in my computer.
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Bryan Hargrave

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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2017, 10:46:39 am »

Bryan, thanks for all of the great advice.  I thought that Dante wanted all of the switches to be the same and on the same firmware level?  I may have misunderstood that.  Also, am I correct when I say that Dante and for instance Crown System Architect can run on the same switches and CAT6 cable?

Thanks
Bill

Bill,

Hopefully someone will chime in if I am wrong... but no, Dante doesn't care about firmware or switch make/model. My main switch racks is the Cisco guys and I star out from there to Toughswitch stuff. I don't daisy chain from one switch to another. On a basic level, Dante cares about some things like speed, energy efficient ethernet and QoS (when running a slower network). As long as you have gigabit and EEE free you will likely be fine. We should all prefer uniformity and high quality but Audinate pretty much says "who cares" outside of those three features.

In the field, most sound companies will have a hard time pushing Dante and the cable to the limit. I mean, the system can carry 1024 channels (512 each way) before giving up. Even running a 64 input show with 32 monitor mixes and 2 multitracks, LRSF and 100 delay towers stacked back for miles, I still have a few hundred channels to kill and am only using half of my bandwidth.

also, someone mentioned the auto IP for a dante network.... that 169.254.x.x thing.... that is just for the primary network. the secondary has to be 172.31.x.x. So if you are planning static IPs, make sure you don't deviate from that scheme. That kicked me in the butt for a couple of hours when finally setting up my secondary.

edit because i forget to mention:
A dante network isn't just a dante network. you can run dante and all of your other audio gear on the same network, with the same cables. you can even have it plugged in to the internet so you can email your mom, but don't.

your network at a show is no different than another network except it hopefully isnt connected to the internet. at home you have a few computers, a printer, some phones and tablets, your tv and roku all on the network, all sending data to and fro. that is your audio network. wire it the same. forget the fact that your brain has been thinking in analog cable mode for a long time. one cable, one job at a time. we are past that. one cable to rule them all.

keep in mind, the more you put on the network, the more you need to prioritize the dante packets on the primary network. the secondary will only carry the audio and wont get cluttered the same way.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 10:55:06 am by Bryan Hargrave »
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Re: Dante/Parallels/Smaart/Focusrite Pro 24/Mac Mini
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2017, 10:46:39 am »


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