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Author Topic: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112  (Read 17339 times)

Paul Miller

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QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
« on: January 06, 2017, 04:08:13 am »

In the summer I do a weekly rooftop day party, 3pm to 9pm. All DJ, all current hip hop. To say the venue gets packed would be an understatement. This, plus the physical layout dictates a less than optimal setup, with speakers basically at opposite ends of a long narrow rectangular area. The venue provides a QSC system with 2 K12s on speaker stands for tops and 2 KW181s for subs. I supplement their system with another KW181 that I have access to, so it's a pretty well matched and balanced system. Yes a fourth KW181 would be ideal but that's beyond the scope of this post.

The promoter has expressed his disappointment in the volume we are able to get out of this system. I have a feeling it's actually just the tops that are holding it back, as the sub level is pretty thick and consistent throughout the space. I'm thinking of upgrading just the tops for this coming season, and as I already have JBL SRX712s powered by QSC PL380 and DR260 processing, that would be the most cost effective solution. I would of course need to charge extra for bringing my own equipment, so I want to ensure that the difference between the current K12s and my SRXs is very noticeable and sufficient to justify this.

My other option would be to go with a set of Yamaha DSR112s, based on the feedback I've gotten from this forum. However that would require a purchase, and as I currently have no other use for a pair of DSR112s, as nice as they are, I'd prefer to stick with equipment I already own.

So let's say for argument's sake that the K12 is a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10, and the new JBL SRX812p is a 10. Where would we put the SRX712 and the DSR112 in between those two?

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Stephen Kirby

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Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2017, 04:18:24 am »

The 712s will eat the K12s for breakfast, lunch and dinner.  3" HF driver vs. 1.75".  Neither the 712s or DSRs will make a bunch of mid bass if the music needs it.  But both will go much louder cleanly as tops.
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Paul Miller

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Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2017, 04:25:53 am »

Here's a video showing the layout of the venue. You can see one of the speaker positions at 1:14, and the other speaker position is at the opposite end. A second later is a good top view of the venue so you can see about how large the area is.

https://youtu.be/3m1FE-9SZvs?t=72
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Mike Monte

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Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2017, 07:24:10 am »

In the summer I do a weekly rooftop day party, 3pm to 9pm. All DJ, all current hip hop. To say the venue gets packed would be an understatement. This, plus the physical layout dictates a less than optimal setup, with speakers basically at opposite ends of a long narrow rectangular area. The venue provides a QSC system with 2 K12s on speaker stands for tops and 2 KW181s for subs. I supplement their system with another KW181 that I have access to, so it's a pretty well matched and balanced system. Yes a fourth KW181 would be ideal but that's beyond the scope of this post.

The promoter has expressed his disappointment in the volume we are able to get out of this system. I have a feeling it's actually just the tops that are holding it back, as the sub level is pretty thick and consistent throughout the space. I'm thinking of upgrading just the tops for this coming season, and as I already have JBL SRX712s powered by QSC PL380 and DR260 processing, that would be the most cost effective solution. I would of course need to charge extra for bringing my own equipment, so I want to ensure that the difference between the current K12s and my SRXs is very noticeable and sufficient to justify this.

My other option would be to go with a set of Yamaha DSR112s, based on the feedback I've gotten from this forum. However that would require a purchase, and as I currently have no other use for a pair of DSR112s, as nice as they are, I'd prefer to stick with equipment I already own.

So let's say for argument's sake that the K12 is a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10, and the new JBL SRX812p is a 10. Where would we put the SRX712 and the DSR112 in between those two?

My thoughts: If you are going to make an upgrade to the rig it better be significant to the promoter's ears and eyes.  You may be able to find speakers that sound better and are the approximate same size, weight as the K12's (41lbs, etc.) but the truth of the matter is that if the promoter sees another same-approximate-size cabinet (no matter how much better it sounds) he will not "see" it as an upgrade.

41lb. k12 speakers on sticks in a crowded space creates liability concerns.  Larger speakers will increase the risks... (a pair of my yorkville tx4's would fit the bill nicely...but at 80lbs each....?).
You state that you will provide the upgrade, not the venue...which is fine, but now "you" will become liable if a speaker topples and someone gets hurt.

My post is not much help but may give you food for thought.

All in all it looks like a sweet gig though! 




     
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Paul Miller

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Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2017, 11:37:34 am »

Mike thanks for insight on how important looks are, and the additional considerations. You're right, there's some liability issues, and I'll need make sure I can get the venue to sign off on a liability waiver, as the speaker-on-a-stick setup would be no different with any of the cabinets.

I've gone to considerable lengths to position everything in such a way as to avoid having our rather spirited guests cause harm to the equipment or themselves. One side of the speakers is set up in a sort of pen, completely enclosed by stairway railings and a crowd control barrier, see the attached pic. The speaker stand you see on the far end has since been barricaded by re-positioning one of those huge heavy planters, tucking the stand in behind it, and placing the third sub in front. There's also a super sturdy projector mounting stand that I place on the far side of that stand (in the picture there's a led par on it), so it's pretty well protected on all 3 sides.
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Paul Miller

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Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2017, 01:03:26 pm »

Here's a better picture of the far speaker location. It's tucked in behind that planter about as well as it can be. Speaker stands are Ultimate Support TS80Bs and they are still in excellent condition after two seasons. I do have to check for loose bolts every week.

Quote
My thoughts: If you are going to make an upgrade to the rig it better be significant to the promoter's ears and eyes.  You may be able to find speakers that sound better and are the approximate same size, weight as the K12's (41lbs, etc.) but the truth of the matter is that if the promoter sees another same-approximate-size cabinet (no matter how much better it sounds) he will not "see" it as an upgrade.

To me, if I can provide significantly better sound at the same size and weight that's a win. The SRX712s are rather unassuming in the looks department, so I'm going to check with the promoter to clarify exactly what his expectations are.
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Dave Garoutte

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Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2017, 05:08:30 pm »

If you have the safety factor, pick up the speakers another 5 feet and tip them down.
More even coverage and all the energy will hit the crowd.
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Mike Monte

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Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2017, 06:25:21 pm »

Mike thanks for insight on how important looks are, and the additional considerations. You're right, there's some liability issues, and I'll need make sure I can get the venue to sign off on a liability waiver, as the speaker-on-a-stick setup would be no different with any of the cabinets.

I've gone to considerable lengths to position everything in such a way as to avoid having our rather spirited guests cause harm to the equipment or themselves. One side of the speakers is set up in a sort of pen, completely enclosed by stairway railings and a crowd control barrier, see the attached pic. The speaker stand you see on the far end has since been barricaded by re-positioning one of those huge heavy planters, tucking the stand in behind it, and placing the third sub in front. There's also a super sturdy projector mounting stand that I place on the far side of that stand (in the picture there's a led par on it), so it's pretty well protected on all 3 sides.

The sub/speaker within the railing wrap is well-protected...unless a yahoo decides to hop up on the sub and dance....  A skirt on the speaker pole (standard DJ wedding technique) would discourage this...





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Ivan Beaver

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Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2017, 06:44:52 pm »

The 712s will eat the K12s for breakfast, lunch and dinner.  3" HF driver vs. 1.75". 
You cannot simply take the size the HF diaphragm as meaning it is much louder.

You MUST also consider at what freq you are talking about.

While it is "basically true" that a larger diaphragm will be "louder", the freq at which they are louder must often be "thrown away with eq.

This will be at the lower end of the HF response.

HOWEVER at the higher freq, often the smaller diaphragm will be LOUDER than the larger diaphragm.

This is due to several factors.  One is the simple weight of the larger diaphragm.

Another is the self inductance of the voice coil of the larger coil.

Basically it acts as its own low pass filter-because the inductance is larger.

Of course there are many factors that can make one driver louder or quieter than another.

Generally the larger diaphragms are better for lower freq, while smaller diaphragms are better for higher freq.

There are a lot of "it depends" involved here.

It could be that you are correct in saying that one cabinet "will eat" the other, but there is more to it than just the HF diaphragms size.  That is just 1 of many factors that determine SPL output and quality.
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Michael Thompson

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Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2017, 04:33:24 am »

You cannot simply take the size the HF diaphragm as meaning it is much louder.

You MUST also consider at what freq you are talking about.

While it is "basically true" that a larger diaphragm will be "louder", the freq at which they are louder must often be "thrown away with eq.

This will be at the lower end of the HF response.

HOWEVER at the higher freq, often the smaller diaphragm will be LOUDER than the larger diaphragm.

This is due to several factors.  One is the simple weight of the larger diaphragm.

Another is the self inductance of the voice coil of the larger coil.

Basically it acts as its own low pass filter-because the inductance is larger.

Of course there are many factors that can make one driver louder or quieter than another.

Generally the larger diaphragms are better for lower freq, while smaller diaphragms are better for higher freq.

There are a lot of "it depends" involved here.

It could be that you are correct in saying that one cabinet "will eat" the other, but there is more to it than just the HF diaphragms size.  That is just 1 of many factors that determine SPL output and quality.

While I would consider a 712m or DSR112 to be an upgrade over the K12's, I highly doubt either will offer the increase in level that the club owner is looking for.  It seems more like you just need more rig for the gig, be it more cabs distributed or louder cabs at a select area, going from one mid-priced 12" 2way to another probably isn't going to get you the desired result IMHO.
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Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2017, 04:33:24 am »


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