ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Down

Author Topic: Taps  (Read 6721 times)

TJ (Tom) Cornish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4284
  • St. Paul, MN
Re: Taps
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2017, 10:21:00 am »

It's a mentality thing.
Combining a response to this and a thread in the basement - good judgment is (hopefully) the difference between us and the coming robot overlords.  There are times to share a cord and times to be as far away as possible from a known train wreck.  There are times where "going above and beyond" is the right answer and times where not perpetuating a broken situation is the right answer.  Knowing where a given situation falls is a result of experience and wisdom.

FWIW - I would never let someone else's high-current electrical device - heater, crock pot, spot light, etc., plug into my electrical system.  Battery charger for the video guy? Sure.  Lend an extension cord? Maybe - if I trust the recipient and am confident I'll get my $50-$100 cord back.
Logged

Mike Sokol

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3361
  • Lead instructor for the No~Shock~Zone
    • No~Shock~Zone Electrical Safety
Re: Taps
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2017, 10:27:22 am »

I don't know Mike, I've read his posts and generally think he WOULD try and go above and beyond if he can legally and safely do so. But I don't think the average reader would see that. They might see him as being a jerk for not helping out and making fun of the tent people.

Well, I do bend over backwards to help other contractors on gigs. And if one of the sound companies in the area needs a piece of gear in an emergency I'm there for them at no charge. I simply don't want to profit from someone's misfortune. I also have a list of sound companies on speed dial I can call upon if something goes crazy or one of my crew member's can't make the gig for some reason. We trade gear and personnel back and forth all the time. Band of Brothers, etc...

But when I offer another site contractor a professional solution the day before the gig, and they say they have it covered, well what can I do? I try to do this as professionally as possible and in my best teachering mode (remember, I'm an adjunct professor teaching live sound production at a large university).

However, I'm not going to lend a speaker to another contractor on the gig for their green room and let them gaff tape it into the scaffolding. Nope, not with my gear since then it becomes my liability. And if I've laid out my own distro feeding my sound and video, I'm not going to let anyone else touch it during the gig. I've had guys plug their phone chargers into the quad box feeding my mixing console, and someone else will unplug my mixer so they can plug in another phone charger. One guy even took down the show when he tripped over his own extension cord that was powering his video camera. It was plugged into my quad box in the back of the console, and he got the wiring tangled up. So now my rule is NO outside gear plugged into any of my production outlets. If someone needs power I'm glad to run them their own quad box or stinger and power it from my big distro or a house outlet. But I won't allow an outsider to take down my system. That's not being a jerk, it's protecting my client.
Logged
Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
www.NoShockZone.org

Ray Aberle

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3433
  • Located in Vancouver, WA (and serves OR-WA-ID-BC)
    • Kelcema Audio
Re: Taps
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2017, 10:55:47 am »

That's not being a jerk, it's protecting my client.
And Nathan, this is really the crux of the discussion. What is your priority on the show?

I'm like you and Mike- I'll do whatever I can to help out. That's just how I roll. Being an Eagle Scout helps with that attitude. :) But, the problem with lending out cables, etc, is that it's a slippery slope. What happens if one person needs to borrow a cable? Then he tells his neighbour about it, and now THEY need to borrow something. And now the first guy is back; "I just need ONE more thing..." Not only do you have to worry about later in the event of getting these things back (and catching them before they leave!), but what if you lend out too much stuff... and now YOUR client (the event) asks you to do something, and you no longer have the cabling available to do it? For a larger company, that probably has twice the cabling they need on site, that might not be an issue, but I could see a smaller op having a slim selection of cabling to start with, and suddenly-- You can look like a hero to those vendors all day long, but that is irrelevant if your client is mad. (And those vendors aren't going to be hiring you as a production company!)

Slippery Slopes: I had a show over the summer where I was just providing a couple of generators; large one for audio on the main stage, and a smaller one for vendors. Technically, my invoice was just for dropping off/setting them up, and then picking up at the end of the 2 day festival. However, logistically, it was better for me to just camp out onside like everyone else and enjoy a mini vacation. 2-10x10 tents connected together, cot, rug, table with toaster oven, mini fridge and an ice maker-- I was living nicely. And drinking!

However, once it was known that I was still there, and am fairly competent when it comes to power, I was suddenly being called upon to do lots of little things electrical wise. Help vendors get connected, including fixing their miswired box that tripped the house 50A breaker. Provide backup power until someone came with a key to get that breaker re-set. Figure out a way to get that particular vendor power using the interfaces at hand. Had a 50A cable end taken with them, and didn't get it back for a month, and it's missing a piece now! Show the lighting guy the difference between a 50A/CS plug and a 480V/CS plug ("Yes, this is why your lighting distro cable won't fit here.")

Yes, I could have been a dick and just been all "I'm not here," but I would have otherwise been bored. :) Either way, again, it was a quick slide to a lot of work on my part, and as others mentioned, had something I done failed in a spectacular way, I would have been liable.  :-\

-Ray
Logged
Kelcema Audio
Regional - Serving Pacific Northwest (OR, WA, ID, BC)

Stephen Swaffer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2360
Re: Taps
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2017, 12:44:58 pm »

Combining a response to this and a thread in the basement - good judgment is (hopefully) the difference between us and the coming robot overlords.  There are times to share a cord and times to be as far away as possible from a known train wreck.  There are times where "going above and beyond" is the right answer and times where not perpetuating a broken situation is the right answer.  Knowing where a given situation falls is a result of experience and wisdom.

FWIW - I would never let someone else's high-current electrical device - heater, crock pot, spot light, etc., plug into my electrical system.  Battery charger for the video guy? Sure.  Lend an extension cord? Maybe - if I trust the recipient and am confident I'll get my $50-$100 cord back.

I was thinking the same direction as Tom.  Its one thing to loan a cord for a known/neglible load-another ballgame if its a heavy load that may or may not be an overload.  Too many people view an extension cord as an extension cord with no thought/comprehension of the difference between a 16, 14, 12, or 10AWG and what loads are appropriate and what consideration they should make for the length.  On top of that, to many, a plug is a plug-as long as there are enough places to plug in they just keep adding stuff be it a 2-3 watt battery charger or an 1800 watt heater its just something that needs to plug in.

Helping someone out in a pinch is one thing-providing infrastructure that they should know they need are getting paid to provide is another.
Logged
Steve Swaffer

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 21485
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: Taps
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2017, 12:45:43 pm »

Generally my answer is "no."  A lack of planning on someone elses part is not my emergency to fix, solve or remediate.

It took a long time to develop that mentality as I, like Nathan R, thought I should help out.  The post by Brian M puts is nicely... In order for my department to be fully able and ready to take care of its responsibilities we must have 100% of our inventory and people.

Logged
"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Jonathan Johnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3107
  • Southwest Washington (state, not DC)
Re: Taps
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2017, 12:54:45 pm »

I don't know Mike, I've read his posts and generally think he WOULD try and go above and beyond if he can legally and safely do so.

But I don't think the average reader would see that. They might see him as being a jerk for not helping out and making fun of the tent people.

Review the third post in this thread... Mike explains that he's tried to be helpful with advice, and with equipment when it doesn't impact his own ability to do the job, but the other party just won't listen. And while Mike might have the equipment they need, he's not going to haul it along "just in case" some other provider needs it if Mike doesn't need it for the job.

So while we may OWN the equipment the other provider needs, if we don't expect to use it as OUR part of the job, we're probably not going to bring it along. And if we do bring it along, we're probably expecting to use it for OUR part of the job, so it's not available.

Now if the other provider contacts us ahead of time and wants to rent equipment from us, AND the equipment is available, then the relationship changes. Because we have RENTED them the equipment and not LOANED it at the last minute, the liability shifts somewhat to them because there is an implication that they have chosen the equipment because they expect it will meet their needs rather than you saying "this aught to work." It's the difference between planning and making do (field engineering).
Logged
Stop confusing the issue with facts and logic!

Nathan Riddle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1848
  • Niceville, FL
    • Nailed Productions
Re: Taps
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2017, 01:36:33 pm »

Review the third post in this thread... Mike explains that he's tried to be helpful with advice, and with equipment when it doesn't impact his own ability to do the job, but the other party just won't listen. And while Mike might have the equipment they need, he's not going to haul it along "just in case" some other provider needs it if Mike doesn't need it for the job.

This isn't about Mike's character. He's proven it many times over way before I ever got here. No need to defend the veterans, I respect and admire them :)

My most recent posts were trying to explain the reasoning behind my first post. Obviously, he expounded upon his reasoning in his third post and I didn't bring it up again.

I feel that I didn't do a very good job of explaining my posistion and Tom, Ray, and Mike expound upon it better than I could have. First duty is to safety/legal, then client/our job, then if it is deemed appropriate (using our wisdom/experience/brains != robot overlord  ;) mentality) we choose to help/not help others.

Case in point, at one event I had already positioned uplighting around the venue, yet one of the venders wanted extra lighting for their posistion even though they KNEW that the event was typically not lit well and should bring their own lights. I thought there was plenty of light around them given directly behind was the landscape lighting and on either side was my uplights. But client asked me to help them out some so I grabbed another stringer of globe lighting and ran it behind them.

More time, more work, more hassle, I had other things to do like get the wireless musician working (he brought his own gear and didn't know to give me an output). But I still did the lights. Why? Because everyone was happier and the gig went smoothly and I'll get a repeat customer from that as it was their "best year yet" because I took care of some of their people (vendors).

Anwyays, I feel we've beat the horse enough.  ::)

At the end of the day it is up to our judgement as safe legal professionals to determine each and every single situation.

I just didn't want someone reading the FIRST post to get a sense that Mike (as a veteran, thus carrying more weight) wouldn't try to help out (and emulate an incorrect motive).
Logged
I'm just a guy trying to do the next right thing.

This business is for people with too much energy for desk jobs and too much brain for labor jobs. - Scott Helmke

Mike Sokol

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3361
  • Lead instructor for the No~Shock~Zone
    • No~Shock~Zone Electrical Safety
Re: Taps
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2017, 11:06:28 am »

At the end of the day it is up to our judgement as safe legal professionals to determine each and every single situation.

Exactly right. I see scary stuff all the time, and I do my best to instruct other contractors and performers as to WHY it's unsafe and WHAT they should do about it. But unless it's immediately life threatening then I really can't step on too many toes. However, I have refused to do shows with dangerous situations. I once had a stage contractor bring speaker wings that would never be safe with 2,000 pounds of speakers and amps on each wing. They would hardly hold my own weight, and I'm a skinny guy. So I put my foot down and said no way was I going to stack my gear on them, and they ended up bringing in another truck with the proper staging. Same for power, trussing, tents, etc... If you see something, say something. If it's dangerous, then stop the show.
Logged
Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
www.NoShockZone.org

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Taps
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2017, 11:06:28 am »


Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.067 seconds with 22 queries.