ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Legally/Ethically, when do I need electrician to tie in?  (Read 14309 times)

Jonathan Johnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3144
  • Southwest Washington (state, not DC)
Re: Legally/Ethically, when do I need electrician to tie in?
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2016, 03:58:43 pm »

Here's my take:

If you need anything more than just plugging into an existing receptacle/camlocks, you're going to need an electrician.

As for who pays for it? If you need to have something permanent installed (a new circuit), the venue needs to pay for it. You provided the specs, they call the electrician. Since it's staying there, it's theirs, not yours, and not the client's.

If you need a temporary tie-in, that's a little harder. Ideally, the client pays for the temporary tie-in. There are three ways I see of doing that:
  • The client pays the electrician directly
  • The client pays the venue; it's a line item on the contract or invoice; the venue pays the electrician
  • The client pays you; it's a line item on your contract or invoice; you pay the electrician. You must have permission from the venue to do the tie-in.

Whoever is paying the electrician, they are the electrician's customer. The electrician needs authorization from his "customer" to do the job according to your specs. No matter who does the job, you also need the venue's blessing both for the actual job and for the electrician that is selected. Some venues may have specific electrical contractors that they require do all electrical work in the venue. Some may require only union labor.

EDIT: I've never heard of anything like this in a performance venue, but a couple of years ago there was a big dispute at the Port of Portland (Oregon) container terminal over who would get to connect reefer containers to shore power: the union Longshoremen or the union Electricians. And that was a cord-and-plug connection! So, depending on where you are, you might need to verify with the venue WHO is allowed to connect anything by any means to their premises power distribution. (Not mentioning this to say anything about unions, but to alert you to potential political issues when you just want to plug something in!)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 01:48:14 pm by Jonathan Johnson »
Logged
Stop confusing the issue with facts and logic!

Stephen Swaffer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2405
Re: Legally/Ethically, when do I need electrician to tie in?
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2016, 10:05:41 pm »

Another arguement for having the venue install a permanent receptacle(s) to meet anticipated needs-depending on the AHJ.  Here in Iowa, technically a "tie in" is adding a new circuit-so $30 permit plus another $5 per circuit-maybe more if the inspector dings you for a feeder/service. That inspection may or may not happen-but if it doesn't and someone gets their nose out of joint over it, it could cost a $750 fine.  Much better to pay that inspection fee once and done.
Logged
Steve Swaffer

Nathan Riddle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1878
  • Niceville, FL
    • Nailed Productions
Re: Legally/Ethically, when do I need electrician to tie in?
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2017, 02:38:23 pm »

Edit: They did put in the electrical service (14-50r) as requested.


So I contacted the venue to have proper electrical put in.

Not sure if they have or haven't and loadin is Thursday.

In the past in my naivety I tied into the breaker panel myself for my distro.

What do y'all do when adequate power isn't there?

Risk the show by running extension cords everywhere?
Tie in yourself?
Tell the promoter and or client that I won't do the show (my contract says I can, but that's just not fun)?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 03:09:24 pm by Nathan Riddle »
Logged
I'm just a guy trying to do the next right thing.

This business is for people with too much energy for desk jobs and too much brain for labor jobs. - Scott Helmke

Ray Aberle

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3439
  • Located in Vancouver, WA (and serves OR-WA-ID-BC)
    • Kelcema Audio
Re: Legally/Ethically, when do I need electrician to tie in?
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2017, 03:35:29 pm »

That's a shitty situation to be in-- and really, depends on what your contract stipulates (as that's what will cover your ass if you refuse service).

With an L14-50 available, you should be golden. That's not a problem to connect yourself. HOWEVER, you should still make sure you have contact information for house electrical JUST IN CASE something isn't right.

So the advance will show whether or not power is available. I make the client aware of the need for adequate power. And, if I get there, and there is no where to plug in at, then we hang out until they make it happen. When you get to a certain point, there's no way you can run enough extension cords to make it happen.......

Since I am not a certified electrician, there is no way I will tie something in myself.

-Ray
Logged
Kelcema Audio
Regional - Serving Pacific Northwest (OR, WA, ID, BC)

Mike Sokol

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3361
  • Lead instructor for the No~Shock~Zone
    • No~Shock~Zone Electrical Safety
Re: Legally/Ethically, when do I need electrician to tie in?
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2017, 03:52:35 pm »

With an L14-50 available, you should be golden. That's not a problem to connect yourself. HOWEVER, you should still make sure you have contact information for house electrical JUST IN CASE something isn't right.\

Make sure the first thing you do is measure the L14-50 receptacle for proper voltages. Since that's a basic "stove" connector, they've likely wired in hundreds of those receptacles in homes and there shouldn't be any problems. However, I'm currently working with an electrician who's going to install a 400-amp/3-phase panel for a venue I'll be working in regularly this year, and the electrician just called to "make sure I need all 3 phases". When I told him YES (motors, etc...) he then insisted it needed to be a 480/277-volt service, when I specifically requested a 208/120-volt service in WYE configuration. I also told him NO high-leg Delta service since this is in a 1960's facility and who knows what kind of power used to be in the building. Yup, I'll check that too.
Logged
Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
www.NoShockZone.org

Nathan Riddle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1878
  • Niceville, FL
    • Nailed Productions
Re: Legally/Ethically, when do I need electrician to tie in?
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2017, 04:44:20 pm »

When you get to a certain point, there's no way you can run enough extension cords to make it happen.......
-Ray

True, you're in a different league than I am though.

Make sure the first thing you do is measure the L14-50 receptacle for proper voltages. Since that's a basic "stove" connector, they've likely wired in hundreds of those receptacles in homes and there shouldn't be any problems. However, I'm currently working with an electrician who's going to install a 400-amp/3-phase panel for a venue I'll be working in regularly this year, and the electrician just called to "make sure I need all 3 phases". When I told him YES (motors, etc...) he then insisted it needed to be a 480/277-volt service, when I specifically requested a 208/120-volt service in WYE configuration. I also told him NO high-leg Delta service since this is in a 1960's facility and who knows what kind of power used to be in the building. Yup, I'll check that too.

Absolutely! Thanks for the advice. I've long held the 'test' & 'verify' (meter your connections), because if you don't you're bound to run into something that blows something else up.

Oh Joy, I had my fun time with electricians this past weekend too! FYI, your guides on ground loops and how to fix ground lines/hums have greatly enhanced my understanding of electricity as it pertains to installed/touring pro audio. I appreciate all the time you dedicate to this forum!
Logged
I'm just a guy trying to do the next right thing.

This business is for people with too much energy for desk jobs and too much brain for labor jobs. - Scott Helmke

Jonathan Johnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3144
  • Southwest Washington (state, not DC)
Re: Legally/Ethically, when do I need electrician to tie in?
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2017, 05:10:22 pm »

Make sure the first thing you do is measure the L14-50 receptacle for proper voltages

Measure each hot to neutral, and hot to hot.

Each hot to neutral should be ~120V.

Hot-to-hot may be ~240V; it may be ~208V. If it's 240V, that's single-phase service. If it's 208V, that's two legs of a three-phase service (which -- getting into the weeds here -- two legs of a three-phase service is single-phase. Just a different voltage than standard single phase.)

Depending on your setup (i.e., if all of your devices are 120V) then it might not matter whether it's 240 or 208. If some device requires 240V, then 208V may not be acceptable. Note that some "universal power supplies" don't care whether they see 208 or 240; they probably accept anything between 100V and 250V.

Better to test and know than to assume and be wrong.
Logged
Stop confusing the issue with facts and logic!

Nathan Riddle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1878
  • Niceville, FL
    • Nailed Productions
Re: Legally/Ethically, when do I need electrician to tie in?
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2017, 05:48:49 pm »

Measure each hot to neutral, and hot to hot.

Each hot to neutral should be ~120V.

Hot-to-hot may be ~240V; it may be ~208V. If it's 240V, that's single-phase service. If it's 208V, that's two legs of a three-phase service (which -- getting into the weeds here -- two legs of a three-phase service is single-phase. Just a different voltage than standard single phase.)

Depending on your setup (i.e., if all of your devices are 120V) then it might not matter whether it's 240 or 208. If some device requires 240V, then 208V may not be acceptable. Note that some "universal power supplies" don't care whether they see 208 or 240; they probably accept anything between 100V and 250V.

Better to test and know than to assume and be wrong.

Absolutely, and great post on how to tell the two types of services apart.

I have actually measured the venue before and it is 3p 120/208. The heating is 3p strip heat.

The only thing I hope for [and can't remember] is that there is a neutral and ground to the subpanel and they aren't bonded.
Logged
I'm just a guy trying to do the next right thing.

This business is for people with too much energy for desk jobs and too much brain for labor jobs. - Scott Helmke

Mike Sokol

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3361
  • Lead instructor for the No~Shock~Zone
    • No~Shock~Zone Electrical Safety
Re: Legally/Ethically, when do I need electrician to tie in?
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2017, 06:22:27 pm »

Measure each hot to neutral, and hot to hot.

Each hot to neutral should be ~120V.

Hot-to-hot may be ~240V; it may be ~208V. If it's 240V, that's single-phase service. If it's 208V, that's two legs of a three-phase service (which -- getting into the weeds here -- two legs of a three-phase service is single-phase. Just a different voltage than standard single phase.)

Depending on your setup (i.e., if all of your devices are 120V) then it might not matter whether it's 240 or 208. If some device requires 240V, then 208V may not be acceptable. Note that some "universal power supplies" don't care whether they see 208 or 240; they probably accept anything between 100V and 250V.

Better to test and know than to assume and be wrong.

Assume nothing. Here's a picture....
Logged
Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
www.NoShockZone.org

Mike Sokol

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3361
  • Lead instructor for the No~Shock~Zone
    • No~Shock~Zone Electrical Safety
Re: Legally/Ethically, when do I need electrician to tie in?
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2017, 06:55:43 pm »

Assume nothing. Here's a picture....

One other thing to watch out for is a zero-volt reading between Hot1 and Hot2. We see that in RV campgrounds occasionally when there's only one leg running to a box and the electrician jumps from Hot1 to Hot2 in the receptacle. That can sort of work for an RV or even your amplifiers if they'll run on 120 volts (most do, of course). However, because both legs are in-phase instead of out-of-phase, the amperage on the neutral will add rather than subtract. So you could be sending 100 amps on the neutral wire and contacts which are only rated to 50 amps and will cause a burn-up. I've got pictures to prove it.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 07:16:34 pm by Mike Sokol »
Logged
Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
www.NoShockZone.org

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Legally/Ethically, when do I need electrician to tie in?
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2017, 06:55:43 pm »


Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.04 seconds with 23 queries.