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Author Topic: FOH DB limits  (Read 9504 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: FOH DB limits
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2016, 07:18:01 pm »


I'm more dealing with whiners too, not really anything that can legally hold up. I've done testing during a concert and on the 22nd floor, the SPL would spike by 1-4 DB with the music, never getting past 62dbA in the unit's bedroom and living room.
When you consider that normal conversation is around 65dB, that means that if you are trying to talk to somebody, then the outside music is as loud as you talking or an average TV listening level.

That can get QUITE annoying.
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: FOH DB limits
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2016, 07:21:30 pm »

I do know the D&B rig I have coming can cruise at 115DB all day, as I've done the testing with it this summer.


115dB A (slow or fast) is going to REALLY piss off a lot of people, and is quite painful.

115A peak (typically around 105dBA SLOW) is starting to push the pain level.

About the only way to "balance" that sort of level is with the subs running 125-130dB C.

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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Jay Brett

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Re: FOH DB limits
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2016, 07:28:44 pm »

115dB A (slow or fast) is going to REALLY piss off a lot of people, and is quite painful.

115A peak (typically around 105dBA SLOW) is starting to push the pain level.

About the only way to "balance" that sort of level is with the subs running 125-130dB C.

Agreed, and this is why I'm likely going to have a SPL limit on the venue tech pack. Honestly, I'll probably only have to enforce it a few times a year with young BE's as I get mainly very experienced engineers... Just had Prince's guy here last week (amazing mix).

I just need something solid that I can bring up if a visiting BE isn't wanting to behave!

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Kyle Marriott

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Re: FOH DB limits
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2016, 07:31:24 pm »

Perhaps this is worth a read on the weighting thing. Frankly I find it hilarious to be given an A weighted dB limit at a festival, and then asked to cut 63Hz for the rest of the night because of complaints. Every. Single. Time.

https://www.merlijnvanveen.nl/en/study-hall/123-realistic-goals?utm_source=Merlijn+van+Veen+Newsletter&utm_campaign=3b9498ee43-Merlijn_van_Veen_Newsletter_December_2016_reminder&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_76afddd1fc-3b9498ee43-74511173


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Steve Litscher

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Re: FOH DB limits
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2016, 02:06:13 pm »

To the OP - does your city have any ordinance or restrictions around festival/event SPL limits? In our city, they do and it's limited to 95dB at the edge of the venue grounds/area.

I realize that's a sketchy and potentially unenforceable policy, but you may want to check with the city to see what they have on the books.

Luke Geis

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Re: FOH DB limits
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2016, 04:23:42 pm »

I was going to say that the city  or venue usually dictates the rules. At a venue I manage the PA system for, I have set it so that even the best of engineers can only get about 115db C fast. The goal was to have them all sit around 105db C fast. For the most part that is where it sits. 105db C fast is plenty loud if you ask me.

I have always been under the schooling that anything over 100db fast or slow is too unrealistic for A weighting. If I want to argue my point to an enforcer, I show them the difference and they usually quiet down pretty quick. I have an RTA mic that can be used to show frequency response and I can tell them exactly where they are getting the heap of their SPL from. A weighting has a response curve that recognizes the average human ear at lower SPL levels and will negate lower and higher octaves. This reading will almost always be lower in SPL than C weighting. After 100db the human ear hears things relatively flat and compensation is not required, so the weighting used in the C curve is pretty flat and includes the lower and upper octaves. Fast vs slow is more or less peak vs RMS. The fast level reading shows more instantaneous peak levels, while the slow reading takes a reading every 1000ms / 1sec. and the meter moves accordingly giving a more average SPL level. 
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Jay Brett

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Re: FOH DB limits
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2016, 07:03:19 pm »

To the OP - does your city have any ordinance or restrictions around festival/event SPL limits? In our city, they do and it's limited to 95dB at the edge of the venue grounds/area.

I realize that's a sketchy and potentially unenforceable policy, but you may want to check with the city to see what they have on the books.

They do have some noise ordinance policies, however as far as I can tell it was last updated around 1967. Even though we have residential here in downtown Kansas City, it's all zoned as commercial. That states that a reading of 80dbA is the limit at the "property line". We've never had the police called or respond to a complaint, I don't realistically think we will.

It seems like 105dbC would make sense. My line of thinking tells me this could cause the meter to spike if it's a kick heavy mix correct? It seems to me, that most people complaints about the volume aren't usually volume related and more about how the human ear perceives sound. Everyone can agree that 1Khz at 105db is painful, but 67Hz at 105db isn't really painful so to speak. Not sure if I'm making any sense here!



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Ivan Beaver

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Re: FOH DB limits
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2016, 07:34:03 pm »

It seems to me, that most people complaints about the volume aren't usually volume related and more about how the human ear perceives sound. Everyone can agree that 1Khz at 105db is painful, but 67Hz at 105db isn't really painful so to speak. Not sure if I'm making any sense here!
If you look at a the equal loudness curves, you will see that it takes a large change in dB at the lower freq to be perceived as the same as loudness change in dB at the higher freq.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Chris Grimshaw

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Re: FOH DB limits
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2016, 07:54:07 pm »

If you look at a the equal loudness curves, you will see that it takes a large change in dB at the lower freq to be perceived as the same as loudness change in dB at the higher freq.

I think you've got that backwards.



At low to medium levels (<90dB), a couple of dB increase at 30Hz gives a curve that's 10dB apart at 1kHz.
ie, to sound twice as loud at LF, you only need a few dB. Through the midrange, you need +10dB.

When you start getting loud (>100dB), it looks like you need +10dB at any frequency to sound twice as loud. Interesting nonlinearity.

I believe all of these measurements are taken with headphones, however, so might not account for the tactile feel of loud LF tones.

Chris
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: FOH DB limits
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2016, 09:00:55 pm »

I think you've got that backwards.


Yeah-it's been a long day. 

I know what I meant to say-but it came out wrong.

Thanks for correcting me.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: FOH DB limits
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2016, 09:00:55 pm »


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