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[Dave Garoutte]

I've got a tree lighting event coming up and I need to mic a small school kid's choir (outdoors).
I'm thinking of using two SM81s or C451Bs.
Other options are e835s or e945s.
Any thoughts?

[Mark Amber]

I am not really familiar with the sennheiser mics you listed.

My general advise would be to stick with something similar to an SM58 and use more of them. Typically 1 for every 5 people for a small group would be sufficient outdoors... unless you don't need it that loud.


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[Mike Monte]

I've got a tree lighting event coming up and I need to mic a small school kid's choir (outdoors).
I'm thinking of using two SM81s or C451Bs.
Other options are e835s or e945s.
Any thoughts?

Use your e835's (did you purchase them in a "3-pack")??

I used to use e835's for choral mic'ing until I acquired appropriate choral/condenser mics.

I assume that your event is to be held outdoors.....windscreens will be needed....and bring plastic sandwich bags for the mics just in case there is a mist/rain.  (Sometimes the tree lighting events will go "on" rain/sleet/snow/high wind....)

I would place the mics approximately 5' in front of the vocalists at about 5 feet in between mics.   A chorus of 20 children = 4 mics with the a-fore-mentioned spacing.

Do you anticipate doing more choral type sound gigs??  If so, I would invest in the appropriate choral mics.....however, it really does not make much business sense to purchase additional mics for a one-off.

[Stephen Kirby]

Is this an actual practiced youth choir?  Or something someone put together with a bunch of kids?  I've done a bunch of youth events and most of the kids either sing very softly or not at all.  Getting the mics as close as possible and as much GBF will be critical.  Whatever you have the most of that you can spread around in front of them.  835s would be great.  A bit smoother than a 58 so you can get a bit more GBF with a wide pattern.  If you had a bunch of 945s you can get a bit more GBF, but getting within a couple of feet of the kids is critical.

[Milt Hathaway]

Sennheiser e906. They work well in applications like this, and the hypercardioid pattern does help get more GBF.

[Mark Amber]

Is this an actual practiced youth choir?  Or something someone put together with a bunch of kids?  I've done a bunch of youth events and most of the kids either sing very softly or not at all.  Getting the mics as close as possible and as much GBF will be critical.  Whatever you have the most of that you can spread around in front of them.  835s would be great.  A bit smoother than a 58 so you can get a bit more GBF with a wide pattern.  If you had a bunch of 945s you can get a bit more GBF, but getting within a couple of feet of the kids is critical.

How do the 835 and 945 compare with SM58s or beta 58? I see you mentioned they are "smoother" than a 58 (and then I presume *much* smoother than a beta)


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[scottstephens]

David,

   I've been tree lighting things for a bout 10 years and no the kids will probably not be very loud!! I get one private school that has volume; the others, mumble, mumble, mumble, 10 kids singing the chorus, mumble, mumble, mumble.  Put up a few condensers on stands a couple feet in front/above them and pray. If the kids are on rises or steps, great, if not, you can only do what you can do. I try to get the kids in place and then place the stands. Have your help move them out of the way as soon as they are done.
  The director will probably want a monitor so they can hear whatever music is being played, so have one there just in case. I always try to ring out the monitors, 99.9% of the time that works out well. Be prepared for "oh we need____________". So have a couple handhelds or corded mics at the ready.
  Also make sure all cables are taped down really well and look out for parents and their stupid cell phones getting in your way to film little Johnny singing.   Have fun and remember you are getting paid and Christmas is for kids.
scott

[Dave Garoutte]

I've done the lighting for this event for a couple of years.  Last year I reminded the organizer that we do sound also. 
The choir is probably 20 non-trained kids on a two tier riser.  Definitely of the mumble variety.
The crowd is packed right up to them in the plaza, so getting the speakers up should help with GBF, which has been an issue.
Thanks for reminding me about a monitor for the keys.

[Mike Karseboom]

I've done a similar event for about 5 years with roughly 20-25 k-3 grade kids.  They mostly sing very quietly especially on less familiar lines.  But they can also  get very loud on the parts they know well. 


I too struggled with getting any kind of volume before feedback.  The last couple of years I have managed to get much better results. 


One thing to come to grips with is it is not about how good they sound, it is about being able to hear them at all.  With a boisterous crowd of 100 parents outdoors in the street  getting a lot of volume is more important than any kind of balance or high quality tonality.  They just want to hear their little darlings.


I try to find 4 kids that are really in to it and sing loudly.  I put the mics right in front of them - like 12-18" away and tell them they are the lead for the kids around them so really belt it out right into the mic.  That strategy mostly helps.

I use 4x Audio Technica 3000 series wireless mics on round base stands for logistical reasons related to tripping on cables, no room on the risers, a a very slight concern about shock hazards.  I have also used 4x SM58's and they worked just as well or better from a purely audio standpoint.  I have tried hanging 3x Audix Pro45 choir mics overhead but the results were less GBF in my case. It may be my limited skill level using them but those condenser mics just seem to pick up too much ambient noise and tend to feedback much easier.  A simple cardioid dynamic mic has worked better for me.

Even more important than getting the mics right in their faces is speaker placement.  I use 2x or 3x 12" powered boxes on crank stands.  I crank them up to about 10' and point them down into the crowd.  But they are mostly well in front of and/or widely spaced from the kids.  Position them too close in a more traditional left and right placement,  and feedback is inevitable.  Realize also that the press of parents right in front can hear the kids acoustically, so you are primarily trying to get some volume for the people back further.  Oh yeah, the only monitor is for the keyboard accompianist pointing away from the kids.  That can also give a little for the front line crowd.

The speakers are are usually K12's and they supposedly have a 70 degree connical pattern which I think helps keep the sound directed at the crowd and off the kids better than a 90 degree box. 

High passing all vocal channels as high as 300Hz helps reduce feedback from those less directional frequencies.  Then if you do still have feedback issues, don't be afraid to make radical cuts at the problem frequencies.  Remember volume trumps tone in this scenario.

Of course tripping hazards for wires and tripods is usually an issue at these street affairs, especially since they are often after dark.  Fortunately I can easily get power from the decorative lamp posts along the street.  They were installed with outlets to accommodate lighted wreaths.  So I often put one speaker at one of these lamp posts on the opposite side of the street focused on the people in the very back of the crowd.  Power for that speaker is easy but routing the signal cable safely  would be a problem.  A homebrew wireless speaker setup using a regular wireless body pack transmitter with a guitar cable adapter has helped here.  I plug the transmitter into the mixer and mount the receiver directly on the speaker and send the audio that way. 

In my mind these events involve a lot of compromises because they are in the street with nothing but some choral risers, no real stage or crowd control, and often inclement weather.  This justifies taking a combat approach to getting the sound where it is actually needed and protecting your gear.  Don't be afraid to try very non-traditional setups to do it safely. If you have that kind of flexibility you should not have any problems getting plenty of GBF.  Good luck!

[Tim McCulloch]

It may be my limited skill level using them but those condenser mics just seem to pick up too much ambient noise and tend to feedback much easier.  A simple cardioid dynamic mic has worked better for me.

I'd much rather have the Shure or AKG condensers than any mics designed for close-up use.  It takes knowing the mic and your speaker system but starting with the same high pass filtering you discuss, you shouldn't have LF feedback issues.

That said, with out a way to insure the stability of the stand/boom I'd not want 451 or SM81 out in the crowd of kids.  The Senny 945 would be my next choice from David's inventory.

I've done lots of these things at our PAC over the years and by far the biggest factor in delivering audio to the masses is the speaker system.  One year when I didn't do the Evening With Santa, the tech took out JBL Eons.  It wasn't pretty - lots of feedback issues, insufficient depth of coverage.  In the PAC basement we have a pair of old Altec horn loaded speakers on tall carts (they barely fit through a standard door) and that's what I normally use for this event, but the tech who worked that year didn't want to deal with moving them and he got his ass handed to him.

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