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[Ryan Veeder]

Hey Everyone, I'm new to the forum here. I've done mostly home AV for the last 5 years and am just starting to get into 70v PA Systems. Last year I did an 80 speaker PA system many thousands of speaker cable installed. I just recently did a smaller PA system for a race track where I installed about 2500' of speaker cable. My question is, should I be charging by time? by foot?.. Whats the going rate for outdoor speaker installations like this? I feel like I could be leaving money on the table.

Thanks in advance.

[Ivan Beaver]

You have to use your full real name on these forums to get answers.

What have you been charging?

[Ryan Veeder]

You have to use your full real name on these forums to get answers.

What have you been charging?

Apologies! I'll update that.


I've been estimating the time it would take me and charging $100/hr.

[Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC]

This is really business 101. What are your labor and overhead expenses? I assume material is covered additionally and marked up.

-Hal

[Ryan Veeder]

This is really business 101. What are your labor and overhead expenses? I assume material is covered additionally and marked up.

-Hal

Yes I understand this. I'm profitable, I'm just curious what the industry standard is for a project like this on very long runs. Like networking the going rate is $100-$150 per drop. Obviously you can't charge per drop in this case.

[Ivan Beaver]

Yes I understand this. I'm profitable, I'm just curious what the industry standard is for a project like this on very long runs. Like networking the going rate is $100-$150 per drop. Obviously you can't charge per drop in this case.

It is not the actual length, but how hard it is to pull it.

Some are real easy, and some take many times the labor to pull the same length.

As a general rule, you should have a "general time" per ceiling speaker.  Often this includes the wire pull (not the wire cost)

But some installs are much harder.

If you can pull the wire before the ceiling goes in and put some drops in, it is MUCH faster.

Drop ceilings are MUCH easier than drywall ceilings.

If you have a number penetrations to deal with, that should be extra costs.

There are a number of "it depends".  Sometimes you come out ahead, sometimes you lose a little-hopefully not a lot.

[Ryan Veeder]

It is not the actual length, but how hard it is to pull it.

Some are real easy, and some take many times the labor to pull the same length.

As a general rule, you should have a "general time" per ceiling speaker.  Often this includes the wire pull (not the wire cost)

But some installs are much harder.

If you can pull the wire before the ceiling goes in and put some drops in, it is MUCH faster.

Drop ceilings are MUCH easier than drywall ceilings.

If you have a number penetrations to deal with, that should be extra costs.

There are a number of "it depends".  Sometimes you come out ahead, sometimes you lose a little-hopefully not a lot.

Thanks.

This particular job is outdoors and runs from telephone pole to another. How would that change your pricing?

[Ivan Beaver]

Thanks.

This particular job is outdoors and runs from telephone pole to another. How would that change your pricing?

Are you having to climb the poles?  Or can you use a lift?

How is the wire attached to the poles?

Is it run overhead?  What about strain relief cable?

Or is it run between pole underground?  Do you have to dig the trench?

Is it in conduit?  WHo is running the conduit?  Is there pull string in the conduit?

How far between poles?

As you can see there is a lot more information needed before any sort of questions can be answered?

Basically how long is it going to take you?  Then figure your hourly rate.  Not by the distance of the cable.

I have had quite a few jobs that had pulls of only 100' and take hours to pull a single cable.

[Stephen Swaffer]

One of the things I learned doing estimating for my electrical contracting business is that it is difficult to look at big project and figure out how much time it will take-but you can estimate the pieces easier-so I break my projects down into bite size pieces and built a spread sheet to do the math.

Theere are published construction estimating guides available.  The give estimated time to install various items-for example .20 hours to install a receptacle, 4 hours to install 100 feet of 3/4" EMT in an exposed area, etc.  Similar to what Ivan pointed out, in some cases you install 100 feet of EMT in less time-in other case it will take a lot longer.  Given a big enough project it averages out and actually works surprisingly well.  Still, you have to figure in "fudge" factors at times and the only way to learn to do that acurately is experience.

But, in my experience, the key is to break down the project into pieces that you can make a good estimate for.

As far as leaving money on the table, about all you can do is decide how bad you need the work.  If you will be very disappointed you lost the job, then maybe you asked too much, if you will regret getting the job for the price then you aren't asking enough. I've lost jobs I quoted-and it didn't bother me a bit-I wouldn't have done them for less anyway-and I 've won a few bids I regretted. The "right" price for the job could change depending on a lot of circumstances.

[Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC]

Yes I understand this. I'm profitable, I'm just curious what the industry standard is for a project like this on very long runs. Like networking the going rate is $100-$150 per drop. Obviously you can't charge per drop in this case.

Well, I would argue that $100-$150/drop is not the going rate. It actually is what I used to charge but any customer could find somebody to do it for a fraction of that so what really is the going rate?

For what you are doing I figure my labor in days- figure say $1500/day for two men for local work.  (You're going to have to figure your own rate depending on how many men, what you pay, your overhead and also where you are.) So how many days is it going to take to do a job erring on the plus side?

-Hal

[Ryan Veeder]

Well, I would argue that $100-$150/drop is not the going rate. It actually is what I used to charge but any customer could find somebody to do it for a fraction of that so what really is the going rate?

For what you are doing I figure my labor in days- figure say $1500/day for two men for local work.  (You're going to have to figure your own rate depending on how many men, what you pay, your overhead and also where you are.) So how many days is it going to take to do a job erring on the plus side?

-Hal

You would disagree with the going rate of $100-$150 per network drop?..Including wire, termination, and certified?

[Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC]

You would disagree with the going rate of $100-$150 per network drop?..Including wire, termination, and certified?

Oh, absolutely not! It's just that when I quote that price the customer always finds some hack who will do it for nearly nothing. I have a legitimate business and I can't do it for less so I threw in the towel and said I won't do data networking anymore. No sense wasting time giving quotes that wind up in the waste basket.

Besides, I never liked that work anyway but at least it USED to be profitable.

-Hal

[Scott Holtzman]

Oh, absolutely not! It's just that when I quote that price the customer always finds some hack who will do it for nearly nothing. I have a legitimate business and I can't do it for less so I threw in the towel and said I won't do data networking anymore. No sense wasting time giving quotes that wind up in the waste basket.

Besides, I never liked that work anyway but at least it USED to be profitable.

-Hal

"Trunk slammers" we call them.  Un/underinsured hacks who work for nothing.  There is work for them, I am as uninterested in those customers as I am the low rate of pay.

In my other world we have been in the IT business under the same ownership since 1983 when my partner founded the business.  I joined in 2003 when I merged my ISP with the company and started the hosted VoIP division.

We have been a programming house when that was a big deal (think Dbase II work in the 80's though we were a Dataflex house).  To being a large IBM service shop when 80386's were introduced. 

Highest head count was a little under a hundred today we have a third partner (brought in another ISP that had a good footprint of lit buildings) today we have 12 full time employees and hire out all of our cabling and outside plant (directional boring, fiber splicing and termination). 

We only work with clients that share our vision, cost is usually not the driver.  Everything is spec'd in advanced with full time project management.  It's a great way to work.  The clients we have know without question that we are accountable and from cabling to new wireless infrastructure or a distributed database system.  It doesn't matter we begin with the end in mind and the goals articulated and agreed upon by both of us.  There is no question that the dates will be made and everything will work.  That has tremendous value to successful businesses.

Technology is just one line item of a larger budget or project.  Frankly if your customers are poor so will you be. 

I didn't have this clarity in my 30's but my business and myself matured together.  When you are not hungry you make decisions based on long term goals instead of how to pay the bills.

I didn't wake up in this spot and by no means am I wealthy.  We are stable and comfortable and very content with who we are and what we do.  It's an incredibly nice place to be. 

My advice to you is to work towards that goal and don't take work with marginal profitability.  You will become defined at that level.  So busy chasing the cash flow you won't have the cycles to go sell at the level you want to be.  You have to do it incrementally but you can get to where you want to be.  Believe in yourself and don't compromise.  Always be safe and do quality work.

Low end customers make you compromise yourself in so many ways.  So much stress is caused by the lack of resources.  Results are not always obtained and your reputation is tainted.

So my advice to anyone at the beginning is to always try and stay true to yourself and your work.  Even if you have to take a second job to pay the bills while you grow your dream.  I built my ISP while working full time for Motorola.  My now wife and our 1 employee took care of the day to day work and I handled the infrastructure.  It's been 14 years and I still don't earn what I did at Motorola but I am a lot happier.

My production company will be three years old in a few months.  We have made some mistakes and underbid some jobs but we ended up just taking it in the shorts and losing money.  Writing it up to expereince.  We never compromised our work product.  Each month we have more opportunities and decide who we want to work with and who to leave behind as we grow.  It's fun to watch the business grow but what is really fun is building the team.  These young, talented performers and techs I work with are wonderful and make me feel young again.  To provide an opportunity for them to hone their craft is my highest honor.

Good luck on your job and I hope your business continues to grow.

[ProSoundWeb Community]