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[Nathan Riddle]

Scott, PM'd me and I asked if I could post it up here to benefit the community, he said yes.

Hey Nathan,

The in-ceiling Episode 650's sound really good. The AW70 surface mounts sound ok, but not in the same class as the 650's. I would use them for a patio, but definitely not for the primary speaker inside for the musician. 

You'd be really surprised at the output of the Martins, especially the 6. I would use the 8 in the room with the musician, but I wouldn't hesitate to use the 6 anywhere else. They have surprisingly good bass their size too.

The only caveat is that the entire amp is 70v, and the Martin CDD8's aren't available with a transformer (the CDD6WR comes with a transformer, the indoor CDD6 does not). In this case I would probably use a separate 2-ch amp for the mains, such as the Ashly KLR-2000 which I listed above. This might even allow you to drop down to the PEMA8125.70 to offset the cost of the additional amp, and the 'ancillary' zones will probably be just fine with 125 watts. The PEMA has balanced line level 'aux' outputs for each channel, which you could use to feed the KLR.

If you have any trouble getting set up with Martin, Ashly, or SnapAV let me know and I'll be happy to sell them to you.

Thanks Scott!!

You recommended and helped me out. The least I can do is buy through you! Definitely want to do that if indeed I do get the job.

If I keep getting installs then sure, i'll try and get dealerships; but for now the wonderful folks such as yourself should get my business

Again, I'm trying to do my research and due diligence before using up your/others time here on the forums. But I realllyyyy! appreciate the help, could not do it without you/others.

I have a few questions that I hadn't found an answer quite yet.

For the Episode 650's what sort of area calculations should I use? The Atlas/JBL speakers have a calculator that shows how many speakers per area. Does SnapAV have a similar thing, or should I use the JBL software calculators input a similar sized speaker with same dispersion angle? Bottom line, how do you do it?

Would you recommend the CDD6-WR in place of the AW70 for all outdoor areas or is the cost increase not enough for the quality increase?

I'm thinking it might be best to use the CDD6 for the foyer/entrance instead of the AW70-6 because the sound signature would be similar throughout the main entrance/main room and then in the dining areas the 650's would sound really good and it wouldn't be a notable difference in sound signature between manufactures/series. I'm considering putting the CDD6-WR in the front as well...but then again that's more money and might not be necessary for the ~30s that the customer hears [unless there is a long wait time]

Here's my revised plan thus far:

650-6  - for all tabled areas.
650-4  - for restrooms.
CDD8 - for the main area where musician will be (if there is one).
CDD6 - for the foyer/entrance.
AW70-6 - for the lower patio, upper patio, front.

[Nathan Riddle]

So I sent the estimate/proposal to them. Ended up being 16.5k after tax. They balked at that, thinking more like 8-10k and they want to do it in stages.

Stage = planning final product & start before executing middle thus no extra money is wasted.

I'm looking for a bit of advice.

First, easy questions (i'll explain where they come from later):

1) Do 70v systems sound bad?
2) Can I accomplish the same thing without using 70v system?
    [Could I series-parallel speakers to get the same effect?]
3) Can I accomplish relatively same goal with less/wall mounted speakers.
4) What corners could I cut to lower costs?

My answers to myself (correct me if i'm wrong):

1) No, other 70v systems sound bad because old speakers & improper installations. Yes, lower than ~80hz transformers can saturate, but high quality components and large transformers can help to alleviate that.

2) I could, but it would either cost the same or more, and be more difficult to make work.
[I could, but then why wouldn't I just use a 70v system?]

3) I could use less speakers, not use the ceiling speakers, and instead op for wall speakers; BUT that would only be if the client is okay with uneven distribution because of the wall speakers being closer to some tables and further away from others. Plus the aesthetics of wall speakers is not as appealing.

4) I don't think I should cut any corners. I think I should tell them that cutting corners is a bad idea. If they don't have money for things then stages is fine. I think I should do the main speakers for the musician first and see how they like that. Then do the upgraded ceiling speakers. Then upgrade the amp/controller. Etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes so here we go with another one of those 'my friend' things. Life's complicated...get used to it? I'm sorta in a pickle, ideas/thoughts anyone?

My friend has a friend at the restaurant (his inside 'contact') who told him about the install and he talked to his contact at the restaurant to see what they wanted and 'brought' me to see what I think.

CLIENT = owner = payer.
CONTACT = owner son = person who wants stuff done.
FRIEND = my friend = where gig came from.

Now, it's my company that would do the install, but he found the gig.

I sent the proposal, hadn't heard back and I was just about to call them up when he decided to go talk to them (without me). Okay not a huge deal, but it sorta feels like undermining my authority on the subject matter which erodes my credibility; IMO (tell me if i'm wrong).

CONTACT likes their sonos system (eg. wireless easy simple...), wants a monitor for the musician now (easy), don't like 70v systems because that's what they have now and it sounds bad (incorrect info), CLIENT didn't like the estimated price (fine, it was just an estimate...don't freak out...). Friend says he likes the wall speaker idea, CONTACT now agrees with him (so now, when I suggest not doing that it sounds like either my friend or i am incompetent).


I know i'm not supposed to mix friends and business, but my friend is bringing me gigs that I don't have currently, so that's nice.
But I need to figure out how to make it clear that saying things on my behalf undermines my credibility as a company and generally looks bad on me. [I think that's the conclusion i've come up with]. Thoughts?

[eric lenasbunt]

So I sent the estimate/proposal to them. Ended up being 16.5k after tax. They balked at that, thinking more like 8-10k and they want to do it in stages.

Stage = planning final product & start before executing middle thus no extra money is wasted.

I'm looking for a bit of advice.

First, easy questions (i'll explain where they come from later):

1) Do 70v systems sound bad?
2) Can I accomplish the same thing without using 70v system?
    [Could I series-parallel speakers to get the same effect?]
3) Can I accomplish relatively same goal with less/wall mounted speakers.
4) What corners could I cut to lower costs?

My answers to myself (correct me if i'm wrong):

1) No, other 70v systems sound bad because old speakers & improper installations. Yes, lower than ~80hz transformers can saturate, but high quality components and large transformers can help to alleviate that.

2) I could, but it would either cost the same or more, and be more difficult to make work.
[I could, but then why wouldn't I just use a 70v system?]

3) I could use less speakers, not use the ceiling speakers, and instead op for wall speakers; BUT that would only be if the client is okay with uneven distribution because of the wall speakers being closer to some tables and further away from others. Plus the aesthetics of wall speakers is not as appealing.

4) I don't think I should cut any corners. I think I should tell them that cutting corners is a bad idea. If they don't have money for things then stages is fine. I think I should do the main speakers for the musician first and see how they like that. Then do the upgraded ceiling speakers. Then upgrade the amp/controller. Etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes so here we go with another one of those 'my friend' things. Life's complicated...get used to it? I'm sorta in a pickle, ideas/thoughts anyone?

My friend has a friend at the restaurant (his inside 'contact') who told him about the install and he talked to his contact at the restaurant to see what they wanted and 'brought' me to see what I think.

CLIENT = owner = payer.
CONTACT = owner son = person who wants stuff done.
FRIEND = my friend = where gig came from.

Now, it's my company that would do the install, but he found the gig.

I sent the proposal, hadn't heard back and I was just about to call them up when he decided to go talk to them (without me). Okay not a huge deal, but it sorta feels like undermining my authority on the subject matter which erodes my credibility; IMO (tell me if i'm wrong).

CONTACT likes their sonos system (eg. wireless easy simple...), wants a monitor for the musician now (easy), don't like 70v systems because that's what they have now and it sounds bad (incorrect info), CLIENT didn't like the estimated price (fine, it was just an estimate...don't freak out...). Friend says he likes the wall speaker idea, CONTACT now agrees with him (so now, when I suggest not doing that it sounds like either my friend or i am incompetent).


I know i'm not supposed to mix friends and business, but my friend is bringing me gigs that I don't have currently, so that's nice.
But I need to figure out how to make it clear that saying things on my behalf undermines my credibility as a company and generally looks bad on me. [I think that's the conclusion i've come up with]. Thoughts?

A couple of things here.
1-I learned the hard way when I was at a similar point as you. I compromised projects to get it done for the client, even when their budget to expectation ratio was vastly off. I wanted the gigs no matter what. I don't regret it as it was a learning experience, but, if you are not starving without the gig then I recommend you work with them to come up with the best solution to meet their needs. If they don't have budget or desire to do it right then gracefully say thanks but no thanks for the opportunity. Your business will grow far faster from quality relationships and quality work than half ass installs because the client just wanted to throw a few more speakers up.  Also, that 20% disappears real fast as you keep going for call backs that end up being the previous system or its integration into the current system.
If you won't be proud of your work at the end of the day then walk away.

2-nothing wrong with mixing friends and business IMO, as long as there are boundaries and professional respect. Some of my best friends are my colleagues and some of my colleagues were great friends in a previous life. Also depends on the person. Some people make it harder because they are your friend and some make it easier.

To your tech questions,
70v systems don't inherently sound bad. They are often super cheap components, but shouldn't be any reason why a good quality and well setup 70v can't sound good.

For a bunch of speakers distributed 70v is the way to go. Less wiring, fewer amp channels, etc.

Wall speakers would likely be cheaper and fine. Like you said, a few hot spots in the room, but probably not terrible.

Also, I frequently run into this when quoting installs. "We want these 300 things", "oh my, how much?!?"
My next step is to ask point blank for a desired budget range and then start discussing and listing priorities. That's when you find out they can live with preset buttons over a touch panel and save $500 or similar revelations

[Nathan Riddle]

Hey Eric,

Thanks for the advice!

I've been meaning to update this thread and my other thread 'business minded questions'.

I sat down my friend and told him my concerns. He was open to discussing and willing to change. So we had a good discussion. I don't have an idea of what boundaries to set quite yet, but I began mulling things over.

Some of the difficulty lies with the fact that the paying client, isn't really the one who either wants the install done or wants to think about it, and rather has given authority to someone I see as not in a position to make decisions, only suggestions based upon my friend's suggestions. Thus I'm caught in a 3-way struggle trying to appease all parties to get the gig.

Currently, I have a few small issues with my friend assuming things on the customer's behalf and then telling me those assumptions as if they were facts. Also putting certain design ideas in the client's head without my approval. I want to give freedom, but make sure to bring it full circle and let the client know this isn't my company's final proposal. And as a salesman gives us knowledge of what the customer wants/doesn't want so we can either re-train them on their perspective, or have a solid proposal with the limitations associated with it.

Last night, I had a second good chat with him. Side note, one of the reasons I think we can make this work is we talk to each other. I digress, I basically said that I want him to have the freedom to suggest ideas and feel out what the customer likes/dislikes, but always bring the conversation around to that - I (the owner/designer) will be the final authority on suggesting design approaches to the customer. All in all I think things will work out between us.

As far as the customer is concerned, they are scarred of hurricane season and of spending too much money. So gig might be lost, but I learned some valuable lessons from it. They might be more interested next year, heck they might still go for it. Just waiting on them at the moment.

I agree whole heartedly with your thoughts! I thank you for them. I'm not hurting for money at the moment (I'd love a big payoff like this install would be, but not needed) and if I can convince the customer to do it correctly, yet in stages then I will do so. I have no desire to half ass something and not be proud of it. I understand customer/budget constraints, but there is a point that is too far.

[Tim McCulloch]

Hey Eric,

Thanks for the advice!

I've been meaning to update this thread and my other thread 'business minded questions'.

I sat down my friend and told him my concerns. He was open to discussing and willing to change. So we had a good discussion. I don't have an idea of what boundaries to set quite yet, but I began mulling things over.

Some of the difficulty lies with the fact that the paying client, isn't really the one who either wants the install done or wants to think about it, and rather has given authority to someone I see as not in a position to make decisions, only suggestions based upon my friend's suggestions. Thus I'm caught in a 3-way struggle trying to appease all parties to get the gig.

Currently, I have a few small issues with my friend assuming things on the customer's behalf and then telling me those assumptions as if they were facts. Also putting certain design ideas in the client's head without my approval. I want to give freedom, but make sure to bring it full circle and let the client know this isn't my company's final proposal. And as a salesman gives us knowledge of what the customer wants/doesn't want so we can either re-train them on their perspective, or have a solid proposal with the limitations associated with it.

Last night, I had a second good chat with him. Side note, one of the reasons I think we can make this work is we talk to each other. I digress, I basically said that I want him to have the freedom to suggest ideas and feel out what the customer likes/dislikes, but always bring the conversation around to that - I (the owner/designer) will be the final authority on suggesting design approaches to the customer. All in all I think things will work out between us.

As far as the customer is concerned, they are scarred of hurricane season and of spending too much money. So gig might be lost, but I learned some valuable lessons from it. They might be more interested next year, heck they might still go for it. Just waiting on them at the moment.

I agree whole heartedly with your thoughts! I thank you for them. I'm not hurting for money at the moment (I'd love a big payoff like this install would be, but not needed) and if I can convince the customer to do it correctly, yet in stages then I will do so. I have no desire to half ass something and not be proud of it. I understand customer/budget constraints, but there is a point that is too far.

Doing stuff in stages.... there needs to be a master design that the client really, really likes and signs off on.  If the installation stages are very far apart (say, more than 90 days) my experience has been that clients tend to lose focus on either completing the installation or that "design drift" takes place.  Expectations change but the budget usually doesn't. 

The infrastructure - DSP, much of the wiring, probably power amps, UI controls - has to go in at the same time or there are additional expenses to accommodate the incremental nature of the installation.  You may want to look at your proposed design and see how you can break up the installation and price each segment accordingly.  Get your design fees in the first installment...

[Craig Hauber]

CONTACT likes their sonos system (eg. wireless easy simple...),

Now there's a company that needs to branch into commercial audio!

-I've lost track of how many clients wondered if I could do the job with their product

(Probably didn't help that most of those jobs were in that company's home town and employees would hang out at the bars&clubs and they would offer up gear!)

Last time I checked they didn't make a system that would replace an EAW Avalon dance rig (or JBL live-PA)!

-but the hours you waste explaining the difference in home audio vs pro to clients is just frustrating!

So thank you Sonos for making life difficult (And Bose, you're a close second-place!)

[Nathan Riddle]

Doing stuff in stages.... there needs to be a master design that the client really, really likes and signs off on.  If the installation stages are very far apart (say, more than 90 days) my experience has been that clients tend to lose focus on either completing the installation or that "design drift" takes place.  Expectations change but the budget usually doesn't. 

The infrastructure - DSP, much of the wiring, probably power amps, UI controls - has to go in at the same time or there are additional expenses to accommodate the incremental nature of the installation.  You may want to look at your proposed design and see how you can break up the installation and price each segment accordingly.  Get your design fees in the first installment...

I definitely want them to sign off on a master design before starting, but I didn't think about making sure they really liked it or about the extended nature causing design drift. Great insights! Thanks!

Hurricane season is over on the 25th, so we're going to get back in touch and see what they think.

Now there's a company that needs to branch into commercial audio!

-I've lost track of how many clients wondered if I could do the job with their product

(Probably didn't help that most of those jobs were in that company's home town and employees would hang out at the bars&clubs and they would offer up gear!)

Last time I checked they didn't make a system that would replace an EAW Avalon dance rig (or JBL live-PA)!

-but the hours you waste explaining the difference in home audio vs pro to clients is just frustrating!

So thank you Sonos for making life difficult (And Bose, you're a close second-place!)

Where's my like button?

Haha, all that explaining and chatting just to overcome an emotional connection to a device that won't work properly. Oi!

[ProSoundWeb Community]