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Author Topic: Question about column/stick speaker design  (Read 14840 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Question about column/stick speaker design
« Reply #60 on: November 22, 2016, 12:30:50 pm »

They are just one of many tools that I use.   They are all just "tools of the trade".


No one tool does every job-NO MATTER how well made it is or how well it works.

You have the best #2 6" phillips in the world, but it does not reach where a stubby or 18" will.

And sometimes you need a flathead or square drive.

Understanding what tool to use where makes you better able to do a proper job better.

BTW, I also refer to different loudspeakers as "different tools for the job".

FIRST you have to figure out what tool works best for the job at hand.

But if you don't understand how each tool works-it makes it a bit harder.  And when asking others, they will often respond with a tool that works in a different situation.

Ask any mechanic-knowing your tools is a big deal.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Don T. Williams

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Re: Question about column/stick speaker design
« Reply #61 on: November 22, 2016, 03:14:27 pm »

+1 again for Ivan!

The internal eq setting that I use for my KR200's is Dark 1 (D1).  The "published curve" on this looks a bit funny, but it works well for me.  I tried some of the other settings and some of them did sounded awful to me!  I know there are even more choices of settings on the KR202's.  I can understand why someone might think the system sounded bad when they tried them if they didn't find an acceptable setting!
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Question about column/stick speaker design
« Reply #62 on: November 22, 2016, 09:23:31 pm »

I can understand why someone might think the system sounded bad when they tried them if they didn't find an acceptable setting!

My first exposure, where I first thought they did not sound good, was a demo under controlled circumstances of 3 (100. 200, 300?) versions of the K-Arrays sticks, all with matching subs. A lot of time was spent listening to all the presets (and all of the hinge angles) on all of the systems by about 7-8 experienced mix engineers. This was done with help from the folks from Sennheiser who provided the demo gear. IIRC not one of us found them acceptable. To convince the person who really wanted them to be the solution to the problem we put up a single UPA on a pipe and base. It was only a little more intrusive visually (6' black iron pipe as invisible as K-Arry) and it blew away every speaker being demoed.

Yes it is lightweight, yes it is very skinny, yes it has its own amps (in the sub), but it's not for me.

Mac
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John Chiara

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Re: Question about column/stick speaker design
« Reply #63 on: November 22, 2016, 10:17:24 pm »

My first exposure, where I first thought they did not sound good, was a demo under controlled circumstances of 3 (100. 200, 300?) versions of the K-Arrays sticks, all with matching subs. A lot of time was spent listening to all the presets (and all of the hinge angles) on all of the systems by about 7-8 experienced mix engineers. This was done with help from the folks from Sennheiser who provided the demo gear. IIRC not one of us found them acceptable. To convince the person who really wanted them to be the solution to the problem we put up a single UPA on a pipe and base. It was only a little more intrusive visually (6' black iron pipe as invisible as K-Arry) and it blew away every speaker being demoed.

Yes it is lightweight, yes it is very skinny, yes it has its own amps (in the sub), but it's not for me.

Mac

Plus, I have always thought...and my K-Array dealers agree..thevsubsbare very inferior to other companies offerings.
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Jeremy Silverthorn

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Re: Question about column/stick speaker design
« Reply #64 on: January 10, 2017, 02:35:51 pm »

Happy to report back about our event... Used the 2 huge Carvin speakers up front (1588A) & 2 of the smaller ones (1540A) like 30 feet back on a delay. The sound was much better & I have no clue why we never got the delay units sooner!  Does look like time to replace the speakers though... Think one of them has a blown woofer, plus had the same issue with the speakers warming up!  They are in storage all year & only get used for this one annual event and when they're first powered on sound muffled... but after pumping up the volume & running it for a minute or two, it's like the crossovers pop open and the speakers sound like they should.  Any ideas on something comparable to replace these speakers with?  Thanks again, for all the tips, suggestions & help.
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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: Question about column/stick speaker design
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2017, 11:07:27 am »

Happy to report back about our event... Used the 2 huge Carvin speakers up front (1588A) & 2 of the smaller ones (1540A) like 30 feet back on a delay. The sound was much better & I have no clue why we never got the delay units sooner!  Does look like time to replace the speakers though... Think one of them has a blown woofer, plus had the same issue with the speakers warming up!  They are in storage all year & only get used for this one annual event and when they're first powered on sound muffled... but after pumping up the volume & running it for a minute or two, it's like the crossovers pop open and the speakers sound like they should.  Any ideas on something comparable to replace these speakers with?  Thanks again, for all the tips, suggestions & help.

That sounds like the symptom of a bad solder joint. If you only use this system once a year it would probably be wiser to rent a system when you need it. But you may have covered why this isn't an option in an earlier post.
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John Ferreira

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Re: Question about column/stick speaker design
« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2017, 07:07:57 pm »

What sort of data are you looking for? The website gives the basic information.

Generally the best way to determine "suitability" (coverage-SPL-freq response et) is to model the speaker in question.  This is easily done via the free Direct software.

Maybe you are looking for something else.  What would that be?  And do other manufacturers offer this as well that give you more information

The FIRST and most important aspect of "performs well enough in a given situation", is to determine WHAT that situation requires and what sort of performance you are ACTUALLY looking for.

A SIMPLE SPL number (with no weighting or time) is kinda useless.

For example here are some numbers from my show last night.

This was the warm up act-I did not stay the whole time-but am QUITE SURE it got quite a bit louder after I left-there were still 4 hours left in the show.  The full range system still had around 10-15dB headroom (before limiters) in it when I left.  The subs were probably a bit less than 10dB left.

This was measured with a NTI XL2 meter.  It is good to 144dB.

FOH was around 125' from the stage.  The rear wall was around 240' from the stage.  Venue capacity was 5000, but maybe half full when I left.

I measured this during the first 2 acts over a variety of songs and it was pretty consistent.

Here is what I was measuring at FOH.

A slow was around 103dB.  A peak was around 112-114dB.

C slow was around 120dB.  C peak around 130-133dB

The actual freq response was a typical low freq "haystack".

Below 100Hz was typically 40dB higher than above 200hz.

Most of the music was centered around 50Hz, but did get down to 25Hz or so at times.  Which was around the same level as 50Hz.

So what number would you say is a "simple SPL" that describes the system loudness and capability?

It really depends on more specifics.  The level below 100Hz had a ratio of 10,000 times that of the rest of the spectrum.

So it was "carrying" a lot of the weight-so to speak.

I'm sorry-but simple answers result in wrong answers in complex situations.

I find this post excellent, with useful information relative to its function.
Thanks Ivan
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John Ferreira

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Question about column/stick speaker design
« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2017, 07:07:57 pm »


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