ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics  (Read 4147 times)

Stephen Swaffer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2194
"Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« on: August 10, 2016, 01:02:45 pm »

So I think I understand the situation, but I am curious how to explain what is happening-and my apologies for a bit of a rant against people being granted the "engineer" title because they are sales engineers.

My pastor just told me that a sales engineer (whom I like and at least used to respect) told him that we simply had to go powered speakers, and that what we reall needed was Bose F1 Line Arrays-in fact 3 of them at 1000 watts each.

Our auditorium is about 100 feet wide and 80 feet front to back.  Vaulted ceiling runs left to right, ceiling is embossed tin aprox 32 feet at peak and 15' at side walls.  Walls are plaster backed by 18" of brick, back wall is solid wood roll up doors about 40 feet wide by 15 ft tall-they open on an overflow area with fill speakers.  The last significant remodel this building had (at least acoustically speaking) was 1910 or so (building dates to 1865).  Our church has owned it for 40 years-we did add padding to pews and carpet.  We currently use a biamped center cluster with 2 EV horns that are fairly well directed towards pews and an EV cabinet powered by a Crown XLS1500 (I think?not 100% sure of size).

He thinks going to something like this will give a "crisp" sound.  I am thinking because of modern auditoriums that he has visited that are acoustically dead.

I think what he is hearing/not liking is natural room reflections-not speaker issues.  We have talked about getting the system tuned-and I would rather spend the money to have someone come in than to buy the Bose.

The Bose are rated at 100 degrees coverage-how would you ever deploy them to cover 180 deg (engineer??).  1000 watts each-yet 200 watts input power (energy crisis solved!)  They EQ themselves (no matter the room you install them in?). I know power speakers have there place-but are we outdated (as the "engineer" claimed just because we are using passive?  I know the "engineer" has never been in our building and probably never seen pics-yet he works for a highly regarded midwest outfit that I have spoken highly of quite often.

How do I explain why the sound is not "crisp" to a musically savy, sharp eared person that is convinced we can fix anything with technology?
Logged
Steve Swaffer

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8779
  • Atlanta GA
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2016, 01:47:18 pm »

The problem with powered speakers in most installs (especially when flown) is getting to them to replace the amps when they fail.

I would much rather have them in a rack where they are much easier to swap around.

Also getting the power to flown speakers is often an expense that people forget. Until it is to late to "call it off".
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

John L Nobile

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1698
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2016, 01:57:43 pm »



Also getting the power to flown speakers is often an expense that people forget. Until it is to late to "call it off".

You could just run orange extension cords up to them. Add some colour to the building.

Good point Ivan. Having to run power neatly to flown speakers in an old building would probably be a huge expense.

Hope you're able to get a few more quotes for your room. I assume the guy suggesting Bose is also a dealer and has a few boxes in stock gathering dust.
Logged

TJ (Tom) Cornish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4261
  • St. Paul, MN
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2016, 03:15:25 pm »

So I think I understand the situation, but I am curious how to explain what is happening-and my apologies for a bit of a rant against people being granted the "engineer" title because they are sales engineers.

My pastor just told me that a sales engineer (whom I like and at least used to respect) told him that we simply had to go powered speakers, and that what we reall needed was Bose F1 Line Arrays-in fact 3 of them at 1000 watts each.

Our auditorium is about 100 feet wide and 80 feet front to back.  Vaulted ceiling runs left to right, ceiling is embossed tin aprox 32 feet at peak and 15' at side walls.  Walls are plaster backed by 18" of brick, back wall is solid wood roll up doors about 40 feet wide by 15 ft tall-they open on an overflow area with fill speakers.  The last significant remodel this building had (at least acoustically speaking) was 1910 or so (building dates to 1865).  Our church has owned it for 40 years-we did add padding to pews and carpet.  We currently use a biamped center cluster with 2 EV horns that are fairly well directed towards pews and an EV cabinet powered by a Crown XLS1500 (I think?not 100% sure of size).

He thinks going to something like this will give a "crisp" sound.  I am thinking because of modern auditoriums that he has visited that are acoustically dead.

I think what he is hearing/not liking is natural room reflections-not speaker issues.  We have talked about getting the system tuned-and I would rather spend the money to have someone come in than to buy the Bose.

The Bose are rated at 100 degrees coverage-how would you ever deploy them to cover 180 deg (engineer??).  1000 watts each-yet 200 watts input power (energy crisis solved!)  They EQ themselves (no matter the room you install them in?). I know power speakers have there place-but are we outdated (as the "engineer" claimed just because we are using passive?  I know the "engineer" has never been in our building and probably never seen pics-yet he works for a highly regarded midwest outfit that I have spoken highly of quite often.

How do I explain why the sound is not "crisp" to a musically savy, sharp eared person that is convinced we can fix anything with technology?
Ask your "sales engineer" to arrange a demo and prove the proposed solution will solve the problem.  :)

Combating room liveness is done by increasing speaker pattern control so the sound falls on the people and not on the walls/ceiling, and making those walls/ceiling less efficient at reflecting that sound back at you.  The Bose F1 will do neither, and is an expensive, glorified speaker on a stick.

RE input power vs. output power - musical crest factor and amplifier energy storage covers that discrepancy.  Every amp made puts out more instantaneous power than its average draw, so as much as the Bose is full of snake oil, the power side of things is probably legit, not that that means anything to what your room sounds like.

You can probably make some headway with a different set of speakers with better pattern control, maybe tweaking placement so they are closer to your audience, and reducing stage volume (a pretty big deal), but the majority of the situation comes from your architecture, and it sounds like changing that would radically alter what your room looks like.
Logged

TJ (Tom) Cornish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4261
  • St. Paul, MN
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2016, 03:25:35 pm »

The problem with powered speakers in most installs (especially when flown) is getting to them to replace the amps when they fail.

I would much rather have them in a rack where they are much easier to swap around.

Also getting the power to flown speakers is often an expense that people forget. Until it is to late to "call it off".
A modern pair of powered speakers like the JBL SRX812P can be a pretty decent solution for those with limited budgets as they sound good out of the box, are low-cost, and have built-in flyware; however the aforementioned points are relevant - you need to get hardwired power to them, have some means of switching that power, and have easy enough access that they can be serviced without major disruption and expense.  You also need to like whatever pattern the box in question has.

For everything else, there's Danley.  :)
Logged

Stephen Swaffer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2194
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2016, 05:40:14 pm »

A modern pair of powered speakers like the JBL SRX812P can be a pretty decent solution for those with limited budgets as they sound good out of the box, are low-cost, and have built-in flyware; however the aforementioned points are relevant - you need to get hardwired power to them, have some means of switching that power, and have easy enough access that they can be serviced without major disruption and expense.  You also need to like whatever pattern the box in question has.

For everything else, there's Danley.  :)

I already mentioned Danley ;).  To anyone not following professional sound Danley is a no name and Bose is where its at-and this (mainly mail order) dealer doesn't sell Danley-so why would he recomend them?

Is a powered speaker-given the factory tuned processing for that speaker-signifcantly better than a passive speaker in an install.  Assuming the system is professionally tuned?  I have done the best I can with this system and I know the room-but I'll be the last one to claim it is professionally tuned.  For less money than the 3 Bose speakers I can have a professional tune the system-but that is seen as less of an investment than buying something new and shiney.

I would love to find a way to do a blind A-B-C demo.
Logged
Steve Swaffer

Justin Bartlett

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 177
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2016, 06:50:16 pm »

So I think I understand the situation, but I am curious how to explain what is happening-and my apologies for a bit of a rant against people being granted the "engineer" title because they are sales engineers.

My pastor just told me that a sales engineer (whom I like and at least used to respect) told him that we simply had to go powered speakers, and that what we reall needed was Bose F1 Line Arrays-in fact 3 of them at 1000 watts each.

Our auditorium is about 100 feet wide and 80 feet front to back.  Vaulted ceiling runs left to right, ceiling is embossed tin aprox 32 feet at peak and 15' at side walls.  Walls are plaster backed by 18" of brick, back wall is solid wood roll up doors about 40 feet wide by 15 ft tall-they open on an overflow area with fill speakers.  The last significant remodel this building had (at least acoustically speaking) was 1910 or so (building dates to 1865).  Our church has owned it for 40 years-we did add padding to pews and carpet.  We currently use a biamped center cluster with 2 EV horns that are fairly well directed towards pews and an EV cabinet powered by a Crown XLS1500 (I think?not 100% sure of size).

He thinks going to something like this will give a "crisp" sound.  I am thinking because of modern auditoriums that he has visited that are acoustically dead.

I think what he is hearing/not liking is natural room reflections-not speaker issues.  We have talked about getting the system tuned-and I would rather spend the money to have someone come in than to buy the Bose.

The Bose are rated at 100 degrees coverage-how would you ever deploy them to cover 180 deg (engineer??).  1000 watts each-yet 200 watts input power (energy crisis solved!)  They EQ themselves (no matter the room you install them in?). I know power speakers have there place-but are we outdated (as the "engineer" claimed just because we are using passive?  I know the "engineer" has never been in our building and probably never seen pics-yet he works for a highly regarded midwest outfit that I have spoken highly of quite often.

How do I explain why the sound is not "crisp" to a musically savy, sharp eared person that is convinced we can fix anything with technology?

I'm not (quite) going to say that Bose products have no legitimate place in pro audio, but this "sales engineer" sounds like one of a breed I know all too well:  he thinks you need Bose because Bose is what he sells.  This breed cares nothing for your actual needs and nothing for the actual results; he cares only about selling you some Bose speakers.  Don't walk away from him: run away from him.  You will not get a good result from this person, whether you follow his recommendations or not, because he is not aiming for a good result for you.  He's aiming for a sale, nothing more, nothing less.

Not everyone who works with Bose treats people this way, but there are an awful lot of similar stories; few of them end well.
Logged

Lee Douglas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 505
  • 47.662615, -116.756954
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2016, 07:32:24 pm »

Ask him, or better yet those that are listening to him, to back up his recommendations with documentation and room predictions using your venue as the model.  Then be ready with another proposal from another vendor that has that documentation.  Then dig up that write up about why churches need to buy their audio systems three times and distribute that amongst those that would waste the congregations money.
Logged
This space for rent

Chris Penny

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 56
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2016, 07:56:17 pm »

Apart from the already identified issues with running power, from my quick look the Bose F1 system looks like it was designed as a replacement/ alternative for speaker on stick set-ups, rather a system for an an install environment. Assuming we are talking Bose, for an install environment (especially one with challenging acoustics) I would have thought the room or show match line would be a better choice? As others have noted going away from Bose there are plenty more, and most likely better alternatives out there.  The key thing here is you want whatever system you end up with to be properly designed and tested taking into your room requirements.  Just going with what a "sales engineer" is trying to sell this week is probably not good stewardship of your churches resources (as suggested find that three systems article).
Logged
Sound Guy
Gymea Baptist Church
Sydney, Australia
www.gymeabaptist.org.au

Lee Douglas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 505
  • 47.662615, -116.756954
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2016, 08:36:33 pm »

Logged
This space for rent

TJ (Tom) Cornish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4261
  • St. Paul, MN
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2016, 09:59:35 pm »

Is a powered speaker-given the factory tuned processing for that speaker-signifcantly better than a passive speaker in an install.  Assuming the system is professionally tuned?  I have done the best I can with this system and I know the room-but I'll be the last one to claim it is professionally tuned.  For less money than the 3 Bose speakers I can have a professional tune the system-but that is seen as less of an investment than buying something new and shiney.

I would love to find a way to do a blind A-B-C demo.
Overall sound quality is influenced by these factors in decreasing order of influence:

1 On-stage talent
2 Stage volume
3 Room acoustics
4 Speaker quality/system tuning
5 Mics
6 Everything else

If you have items 1-3 well sorted, you can absolutely tell the difference between an average-quality speaker/tuning and a great quality speaker/manufacturer-provided amp and DSP combo.  The latest generation of focused/FIR-tuned speakers, whether the amps are inside the boxes or external as part of a manufacturer-matched system, sound CONSIDERABLY better than speakers of 10 years ago, and with the JBL SRX800P series and Yamaha DSR series, this great sound extends down pretty low on the food chain.  This level of tuning isn't really reproducible by the masses.  If you have cruddy acoustics, it might make very little difference.

FWIW, Danley has not yet embraced FIR tuning.  Their boxes sound good based on good physical design.  In my opinion, at least some models would sound better with some FIR work.  Other horn-loaded boxes like the EAW Qxi series have embraced this tuning, and won out in a head to head demo at my church.

I think a demo would be a good idea before spending any money.  In a highly-reverberant room $3000 spent on sound treatment is likely to make a bigger difference than $3000 spent on new speakers.
Logged

Jeff Carter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 363
  • Kitchener, ON, Canada
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2016, 11:36:32 pm »

How do I explain why the sound is not "crisp" to a musically savy, sharp eared person that is convinced we can fix anything with technology?
Standing in the middle of the room and listening the reverberation in response to an impulse (maybe popping a balloon?) might illustrate the point.
Logged
Mothers, don't let your babies grow up to be physics PhDs

Jonathan Johnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2978
  • Southwest Washington (state, not DC)
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2016, 02:49:01 pm »

I know the "engineer" has never been in our building and probably never seen pics-yet he works for a highly regarded midwest outfit that I have spoken highly of quite often.

I don't care where he's from or how many successful installs he's had, there is NO WAY that any engineer's "solution" can be validated if he has never seen the room and never experienced how it is to be used -- or never looked at the plans.

There is some engineering design work that can be done from plans, and that's an acceptable way to do it. Good acoustic/audio engineers do it all the time for buildings that haven't been built yet. Even so, it comes down to demoing in the actual building. What looks good on paper doesn't always translate into what sounds good in real life.
Logged
Stop confusing the issue with facts and logic!

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8779
  • Atlanta GA
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2016, 01:03:21 pm »


Is a powered speaker-given the factory tuned processing for that speaker-signifcantly better than a passive speaker in an install.  Assuming the system is professionally tuned?  I have done the best I can with this system and I know the room-but I'll be the last one to claim it is professionally tuned.  For less money than the 3 Bose speakers I can have a professional tune the system-but that is seen as less of an investment than buying something new and shiney.


There is a lot more to it than that.

A powered speaker, with all the processing in the world, is only going to try to make it sound by itself-in a particular situation.

As soon as you put that speaker in a room, additional processing will need to be made to help it work best IN THAT room.

It also depends on the particular speakers in question.

In a lot of cases, a processed powered speaker will still not sound as good as a well designed passive speaker-mainly because of the acoustical layout/design of the speaker.

Yes this will vary quite a bit.

So you CANNOT simply say a powered/processed speaker vs a passive speaker.  Not all of either are the same-or even close.

You MUST specify a specific model of one vs another.

Other than that, it is like saying  "Is a gas engine better than a diesel?"  It depends on a LOT of SPECIFIC factors.  And unless you know those factors and the specific case in how they are being considered, you will get a lot of useless ideas/suggestions.

They may be valid for some cases, but not for others.

What makes a product great for one usage, ALSO makes it COMPLETELY WRONG from another usage.

The NEEDS HAVE to be considered first-such as looking at the room.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Don T. Williams

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 707
  • Midas Pro 1 & 2, M32, dbTech T12, T8, S30, DM12
    • Q Systems Music & Sound
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2016, 01:38:48 pm »

I'm just wondering why the "sales engineer" didn't mention the Bose Room Match series, which could possibly have a model that works in your room?  I think they do some room modeling to determine which model (there are a bunch) would work in your venue.

Disclaimer:  I have never heard a Bose Room Match system, and I'm not a Bose fan.  If you pastor is really "stuck" on that brand, at least try to get a product that works toward solving the problem.  Your "sales engineer" sounds more like a "salesman".

Quite a few years ago, a sales team came to my area and sold a bunch of churches the "banana" systems.  It created wonderful sales opportunities for the serious pro audio companies to in and install proper gear a few months later.  That "rule" about buying 3 systems proved pretty accurate!
Logged

Stephen Swaffer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2194
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2016, 08:02:18 pm »

There is a lot more to it than that.

A powered speaker, with all the processing in the world, is only going to try to make it sound by itself-in a particular situation.

As soon as you put that speaker in a room, additional processing will need to be made to help it work best IN THAT room.

It also depends on the particular speakers in question.

In a lot of cases, a processed powered speaker will still not sound as good as a well designed passive speaker-mainly because of the acoustical layout/design of the speaker.

Yes this will vary quite a bit.

So you CANNOT simply say a powered/processed speaker vs a passive speaker.  Not all of either are the same-or even close.

You MUST specify a specific model of one vs another.

Other than that, it is like saying  "Is a gas engine better than a diesel?"  It depends on a LOT of SPECIFIC factors.  And unless you know those factors and the specific case in how they are being considered, you will get a lot of useless ideas/suggestions.

They may be valid for some cases, but not for others.

What makes a product great for one usage, ALSO makes it COMPLETELY WRONG from another usage.

The NEEDS HAVE to be considered first-such as looking at the room.

I understand that you have to consider the application.  My question was more theoritical-in other words, is a powered speaker just a speaker with a built in amp, or does the engineered processing bring with it the potential to be better than a comparable speaker plus an amp tuned in place in the install?  The sales engineer involved made it sound like we were in the dark ages for still using passive speakers.  All to often, IMO, the conversation is powered vs passive rather than speaker A vs speaker B, but I am trying to learn and understand the pros and cons.

To Don's point, that is the other thing that bothered me. From what I have read on here, I feel like line arrays have a place, but in a very reverberant room in particular I am gun shy.  I saw line arrays used at our state GOP convention at a reverberant hall at the state fairgrounds. I kept my mouth shut to see what others thought, but it didn't take long for the complaints
to start-one out of three speakers was completely unintelligible where we sat ( back row, center).  I know that a significant part of it was deployment, I had cringed when I walked in, still it was a bad experience.
Logged
Steve Swaffer

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8779
  • Atlanta GA
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2016, 08:20:03 pm »

I understand that you have to consider the application.  My question was more theoritical-in other words, is a powered speaker just a speaker with a built in amp, or does the engineered processing bring with it the potential to be better than a comparable speaker plus an amp tuned in place in the install?  The sales engineer involved made it sound like we were in the dark ages for still using passive speakers.  All to often, IMO, the conversation is powered vs passive rather than speaker A vs speaker B, but I am trying to learn and understand the pros and cons.

To Don's point, that is the other thing that bothered me. From what I have read on here, I feel like line arrays have a place, but in a very reverberant room in particular I am gun shy.  I saw line arrays used at our state GOP convention at a reverberant hall at the state fairgrounds. I kept my mouth shut to see what others thought, but it didn't take long for the complaints
to start-one out of three speakers was completely unintelligible where we sat ( back row, center).  I know that a significant part of it was deployment, I had cringed when I walked in, still it was a bad experience.
Any processing that is available in a powered speaker is also available in a separate DSP for a passive speaker.

The term "powered" and "passive" are starting to take on different meaning these days.

Some people consider anything that does not have the amplifier inside the cabinet to be "passive", whether or not it has a passive crossover or not.

In a highly reverberant space, there are a couple of things that will increase the intelligibility.

Being able to a ACTUALLY control the pattern of where the sound goes is the biggest. 

Yes, line arrays can narrow the vertical pattern, something that actually happens (that the marketing department does not want you to know) is that there are "lobes" that shoot out the top/bottom/rear etc that will bounce around the space-lowering the intelligibility.

Also line arrays have almost no horizontal pattern control-so the sound just sprays off the sides all over the walls.

Large horns offer the most consistent pattern control.

The other thing that greatly helps intelligibility is having ONE SOURCE of sound.  NOT the different arrivals of a line array-where the sound comes out of each of the different cabinets at different times.

Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

TJ (Tom) Cornish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4261
  • St. Paul, MN
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2016, 10:41:54 pm »

I understand that you have to consider the application.  My question was more theoritical-in other words, is a powered speaker just a speaker with a built in amp, or does the engineered processing bring with it the potential to be better than a comparable speaker plus an amp tuned in place in the install?  The sales engineer involved made it sound like we were in the dark ages for still using passive speakers.  All to often, IMO, the conversation is powered vs passive rather than speaker A vs speaker B, but I am trying to learn and understand the pros and cons.

To Don's point, that is the other thing that bothered me. From what I have read on here, I feel like line arrays have a place, but in a very reverberant room in particular I am gun shy.  I saw line arrays used at our state GOP convention at a reverberant hall at the state fairgrounds. I kept my mouth shut to see what others thought, but it didn't take long for the complaints
to start-one out of three speakers was completely unintelligible where we sat ( back row, center).  I know that a significant part of it was deployment, I had cringed when I walked in, still it was a bad experience.
Whether the amps are inside the speaker our outside has less to do with final sound quality than a manufacturer-integrated system vs a speaker with a blank DSP/amp system.  While it's true that any speaker will need some tweaking for the room it's in, starting with a system that due to hundreds of hours of manufacturer work is well-behaved in the time, spacial, and frequency dimensions is far, FAR easier to produce an excellent result than trying to handle both box tuning and room tuning, at least for all but the most elite system tuners.  In addition to sound quality benefits of "integrated" amp/DSP/speaker systems, manufacturers handle the driver protection work, meaning you can access more of the boxes' theoretical output without worrying about damage.

Line arrays are not a panacea, and for a permanent install where you have the luxury of choosing the correct speakers for the space from a catalog, usually point source systems will give better results for less money than a line array - especially for small and medium rooms.  BTW, the Bose F1 is not a 'line array' by any definition accepted on this forum.  It's not even a dash array.
Logged

Mike Caldwell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1339
  • Covington, Ohio
    • Mike Caldwell Audio Productions
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2016, 12:24:10 pm »

Post a picture or two of the room and the system in there now.

Just asking here, have you confirmed that all the system drivers and components are working?
Just had to ask because I get at least four service calls and or system upgrade proposal request a year where the problem is blown drivers in the system, many have been that way for years and finally someone decides somethings not right!!
Maybe half the time system speaker system was actually right for the job but issues up stream were the main cause of the untimely blown drivers.

Stephen Swaffer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2194
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2016, 02:51:09 pm »

Any processing that is available in a powered speaker is also available in a separate DSP for a passive speaker.

The term "powered" and "passive" are starting to take on different meaning these days.

Some people consider anything that does not have the amplifier inside the cabinet to be "passive", whether or not it has a passive crossover or not.

A keeping in mind TJs comments on factory set DSP-seems obvious that it should be better than the average guy can do in his shop.

Is the potential improvement enough to overcome manufacturing tolerances?  I'm assuming that speakers are mass produced and programming is just downloaded-but there are tolerances in any manufacturing process-how precise is the programming?  Yes I'm splitting hairs.  I'm not trying to start an argument, or am I? ;D  This is probably the audio equivalent of the theological debate"how many angels can dance on the head of a pin."

I'll put a pic up later-the current cluster is a set of large EV horns under a single cabinet-biamped.  I replaced the drivers a couple of years ago-reasonably certain they are still functioning correctly.  This is more a case, IMO, of we are going to do something-just trying to steer it the right direction.

I might be a wrong, but I feel like part of the issue (in the dissatisfaction) is that last November we replaced our A&H GL3800 with a QU-32.  I basically unplugged the 3800 and plugged the QU in to the existing DSP.  I didn't think it would make much difference, but the highs were really harsh, so I rolled them off-just a quick make it better for now.  Long story and church politics involved, but the last time I carefully went through the system EQ was on the 3800-I feel like, either the 3800 had a degraded HF response, or there was just a big difference in the two desks on the high end.
Logged
Steve Swaffer

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8779
  • Atlanta GA
Re: "Engineers" and Pre-SR acoustics
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2016, 05:04:34 pm »

A keeping in mind TJs comments on factory set DSP-seems obvious that it should be better than the average guy can do in his shop.

Is the potential improvement enough to overcome manufacturing tolerances?  I'm assuming that speakers are mass produced and programming is just downloaded-but there are tolerances in any manufacturing process-how precise is the programming?  Yes I'm splitting hairs.  I'm not trying to start an argument, or am I? ;D  This is probably the audio equivalent of the theological debate"how many angels can dance on the head of a pin."


I was not referring to what the average person could do in their shop-heck the average audio person doesn't even own an RTA.

I was talking about factory presets is amps or DSPs.

I am not sure-but pretty confidant that most powered speaker programs are NOT tuned specifically for the cabinets they are used in.

ESPECIALLY the cheaper ones.  There simply is no money available for somebody to "fine tune" to a particular cabinet.

And if they did, what happens when the amp needs to be replaced?

Do they insist you send in the cabinet (at whose expense?) to have it "retuned?

I am sure they just dump a program in.

There is a pretty wide "acceptance -pass/fail-range" in all types of loudspeakers.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Up
 


Page created in 0.053 seconds with 21 queries.