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Author Topic: System Demo Loudness  (Read 2155 times)

Alberto Escrina

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System Demo Loudness
« on: August 05, 2016, 03:27:36 pm »

We are evaluating to make a system demo with several manufacturers and wondering how to establish some basic rules.
From the WFX Show info I can extract some of them about feeding the audio program, tracks employed, layout ,etc.
I wonder how loudness is managed. Do exhibitors must observe a maximum allowed SPL level?
If yes, as I suppose, how high this level, in your opinion, should be in order to be useful and reasonable and how those trying to go louder are handled by the organization?
Finally, would you choose a "bring whatever you want" or a "reference setup" approach?
Thank you very much!
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Alberto Escriña
R&D for STS Sound Touring Systems
Buenos Aires,
Argentina

Scott Carneval

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Re: System Demo Loudness
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2016, 03:35:05 pm »

What is the intent of the demo?  Are you evaluating for your organizations potential purchase or are you putting this event together for others?

I would say you should operate the system at or slightly louder than its intended purpose.

As far as what they bring, I would think they should be free to bring whatever they want so long as it fits the needs.


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Alberto Escrina

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Re: System Demo Loudness
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2016, 04:07:55 pm »

Hi Scott. Thank you for your answer.
We will exhibit in this trade show that is mainly a Video and Broadcast one with some Pro audio exhibitors like ourselves. A few.
We are trying to help this non profit organization deploying an outdoor sound system area in the parking lot for making more interesting to this kind of companies claiming for a place to exhibit their sound systems working. We believe that many of them are not participating because no noise can be made inside the expo building.
Thank you.
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Alberto Escriña
R&D for STS Sound Touring Systems
Buenos Aires,
Argentina

Brian Jojade

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Re: System Demo Loudness
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2016, 08:45:00 pm »

Speaker demos at an expo are almost as useful as reading the spec sheets....

If you can set up an area to do side by side comparison of systems, that's great and all, but who gets to pick the ideal position for their rig?  As we all know, a few feet in any direction can dramatically change the results.

At an expo, all you are doing is showing the quality of the build. You really can't show the performance of the box in any useful way.

Think of it like a car show.  Yeah, you can walk up to the car and check out how shiny it is, but you don't get to see how fast it goes in the expo hall.  You get customers interested and then after the show, you can show them what your product really can do.
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Brian Jojade

Doug Fowler

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Re: System Demo Loudness
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2016, 01:48:45 pm »

We are evaluating to make a system demo with several manufacturers and wondering how to establish some basic rules.
From the WFX Show info I can extract some of them about feeding the audio program, tracks employed, layout ,etc.
I wonder how loudness is managed. Do exhibitors must observe a maximum allowed SPL level?
If yes, as I suppose, how high this level, in your opinion, should be in order to be useful and reasonable and how those trying to go louder are handled by the organization?
Finally, would you choose a "bring whatever you want" or a "reference setup" approach?
Thank you very much!

I have been involved in many, many manufacturer demos.  AFAIK the WFX demo is properly managed. I'm pretty sure Craig Leerman (one of the mods here) chiefs it, and all the lessons learned over the years are incorporated.

I expect the system gains to be very closely matched.  This is important because it's easy for bias to creep, shifted toward higher SPL.

Hopefully Craig will chime in here.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: System Demo Loudness
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2016, 02:24:59 pm »

I have been involved in many, many manufacturer demos.  AFAIK the WFX demo is properly managed. I'm pretty sure Craig Leerman (one of the mods here) chiefs it, and all the lessons learned over the years are incorporated.

I expect the system gains to be very closely matched.  This is important because it's easy for bias to creep, shifted toward higher SPL.

Hopefully Craig will chime in here.
.
The WFX demo is one of the best done ones.

Each manufacturer is allowed to tune their system as they see fit-within a given time period.

Each system is sent a separate send from the console.

To attempt to match levels, a central position is used and they are measured A weighted.

Pink noise is played through each one and the main system guy turns each system up or down as needed to get a certain SPL reading.

What I found really interesting is how DIFFERENT each "tuning" sounded with pink noise.

How much the sub to top ratio is, is up to the manufacturer.

Some use excessive subs and some don't use enough-but that is purely listener subjective.

The problem starts when some manufacturers will "turn up their levels in their processors" after the system levels have been set.

Even a couple of dB can make a subjective difference.

They are not "supposed" to touch their levels after they have been set, but how else would be levels vary?

I'm not saying anything-just experience.

But Craig and the guys do a good job of "keeping it real" and try to keep everything equal.

 
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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Alberto Escrina

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Re: System Demo Loudness
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2016, 12:04:44 am »

Thank you for your feedback.
It would be useful to know, in your experience, how much the A weighted SPL reading should be, considering background noise is not a problem, and what would you choose, a "bring whatever you want" or a "reference setup" approach.
Scott's inclines for the first option.
Thank you.
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Alberto Escriña
R&D for STS Sound Touring Systems
Buenos Aires,
Argentina

Luke Geis

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Re: System Demo Loudness
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2016, 01:56:06 am »

I have heard of many stories where the DUT's were not even of consumer spec. Things like grey box tampering, exchanging wires inside the box for different gauges, speaker cone doping and any other form of potential improvement has been done. In a place where competition is key, there is always cheating..... Imagine making sure your rig is off ( so the speakers are no longer electrically suspended ) while another system is running? For something as subjective as sound, there is a lot of trickery to be sure you are on top.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: System Demo Loudness
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2016, 07:25:50 am »

Thank you for your feedback.
It would be useful to know, in your experience, how much the A weighted SPL reading should be, considering background noise is not a problem, and what would you choose, a "bring whatever you want" or a "reference setup" approach.
Scott's inclines for the first option.
Thank you.
It really depends on what YOU are looking for and what type of job the intentional usage is for.

But if you want a number -100dBA  give or take 10dB.

BE SURE to read my signature line for more details :)
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!
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