ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: Speaker Management - setup within  (Read 2912 times)

Will Cash

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
Speaker Management - setup within
« on: August 02, 2016, 11:11:18 am »

Hey everyone,

We have a Soundcraft Si Expression board that we're going to use to run a pair of
RCF 4Pro 6001a mains (active) and
either a pair of Orbit Shifters or TH118s which will be powered by a Crown i-Tech 8000

Obviously I have a lot of learning to do if I'm asking this question (and plan to do so), but with the DSP in the Soundcraft and the DSP in the i-Tech, will it be necessary for us to purchase a speaker management rack?

Thanks for the time...
Logged

Scott Carneval

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 992
    • Cenero Audio Visual
Re: Speaker Management - setup within
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2016, 11:20:28 am »

Hey everyone,

We have a Soundcraft Si Expression board that we're going to use to run a pair of
RCF 4Pro 6001a mains (active) and
either a pair of Orbit Shifters or TH118s which will be powered by a Crown i-Tech 8000

Obviously I have a lot of learning to do if I'm asking this question (and plan to do so), but with the DSP in the Soundcraft and the DSP in the i-Tech, will it be necessary for us to purchase a speaker management rack?

Thanks for the time...

I don't have hands-on with the Soundcraft Expression. I assume it has an output EQ, either 31-band or a parametric. Does it have a crossover or delay module? If so you can probably make it work. The speaker has it's own limiter, so you should be fine there. You'll need to run the subs on an aux or some other separate output that is unaffected by the crossover you set for the speakers.
Logged

Ray Aberle

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3434
  • Located in Vancouver, WA (and serves OR-WA-ID-BC)
    • Kelcema Audio
Re: Speaker Management - setup within
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2016, 11:38:08 am »

You'll need to run the subs on an aux or some other separate output that is unaffected by the crossover you set for the speakers.
Alternatively, Will, you can run your board to the I-Tech 8000, set it to power your subs, and then loop out from that to the tops. The XLR outputs on the I-Tech series are all straight throughputs; since all I-Techs had DSP built in, Crown felt it would be redundant to make the *processed* signal available on those XLR outputs.

-Ray
Logged
Kelcema Audio
Regional - Serving Pacific Northwest (OR, WA, ID, BC)

Scott Carneval

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 992
    • Cenero Audio Visual
Re: Speaker Management - setup within
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2016, 11:45:50 am »

Alternatively, Will, you can run your board to the I-Tech 8000, set it to power your subs, and then loop out from that to the tops. The XLR outputs on the I-Tech series are all straight throughputs; since all I-Techs had DSP built in, Crown felt it would be redundant to make the *processed* signal available on those XLR outputs.

-Ray

He could, but then there would be no high-pass filter on the tops, nor any means to delay them to the subs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged

Ray Aberle

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3434
  • Located in Vancouver, WA (and serves OR-WA-ID-BC)
    • Kelcema Audio
Re: Speaker Management - setup within
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2016, 12:00:14 pm »

He could, but then there would be no high-pass filter on the tops, nor any means to delay them to the subs.
I was assuming that with powered speakers, the high-pass filter is already designed into the speaker circuitry? I am not familiar with those RCF speakers and their exact specifications. It would certainly not allow for main delays, though, unless as you suggest he runs the subs on a separate feed. Depending on the OP's deployment plan, though, he may a) not need that delay and b) desire to make setup as simply as possible.

-Ray
Logged
Kelcema Audio
Regional - Serving Pacific Northwest (OR, WA, ID, BC)

Scott Carneval

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 992
    • Cenero Audio Visual
Re: Speaker Management - setup within
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2016, 12:10:46 pm »

I was assuming that with powered speakers, the high-pass filter is already designed into the speaker circuitry? I am not familiar with those RCF speakers and their exact specifications. It would certainly not allow for main delays, though, unless as you suggest he runs the subs on a separate feed. Depending on the OP's deployment plan, though, he may a) not need that delay and b) desire to make setup as simply as possible.

-Ray

They probably have SOME kind of HPF, but it's likely around 50hz or so with the intention of using them 'stand-alone'. I'm not aware of a switch on the back to set the HPF higher.
Logged

Thomas Le

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 800
Re: Speaker Management - setup within
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2016, 12:10:59 pm »

Si Expression has no "Speaker DSP management" built-in, you'll need to buy an external unit.
Logged

Yoel Farkas

  • Classic LAB
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 141
  • eXpert Sound inc.
Re: Speaker Management - setup within
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2016, 12:29:20 pm »

Si Expression has no "Speaker DSP management" built-in, you'll need to buy an external unit.
i have an Si expression and i use them for speaker management.

my suggestion would be:
Set the I-Tech for the suggested crossover point for the subs.

in the SI expression
Run everything to the mains,
Run the mains to the Matrix,
use matrix for mains, fills, subs.
you can Use parametric EQ for HPF, LPF. and you can use Delay.

i don't see any use for an outboard DSP.
 
Logged
Yoel Farkas
Expert Sound inc.
Monroe, NY, USA

Thomas Le

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 800
Re: Speaker Management - setup within
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2016, 12:55:06 pm »

i have an Si expression and i use them for speaker management.

my suggestion would be:
Set the I-Tech for the suggested crossover point for the subs.

in the SI expression
Run everything to the mains,
Run the mains to the Matrix,
use matrix for mains, fills, subs.
you can Use parametric EQ for HPF, LPF. and you can use Delay.

i don't see any use for an outboard DSP.
Interesting take, I originally thought OP would want the crossover functions ala x32.
Logged

Stephen Kirby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Speaker Management - setup within
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2016, 02:00:23 pm »

There is also a separate mono output on the Expression.  I haven't played with it but there is both graphic and parametric available on all the outputs, as well as the matrix outputs Yoel refers to.

The path length for the tapped horns will be longer than the tops so you will probably need to delay the tops a bit. So the delay built into the Crown doesn't help although it could manage the LP/HP sub crossover functions.  Therefore you would need to run some arrangement of separate outputs on the Expression.  And then tweak both to do delay alignment to the backline.  Which sounds fussy to me.  Unless you want to do the aux fed sub thing, I would think a system DSP would be called for.
I'm doing the same thing, powered tops over passive subs.  I happened upon a Sabine (Xilica) processor used for a couple hundred which allowed me to retire my old BSS to back up duty.  You should be able to find something (not a DriveRack PA) decent used with a bit of looking and patience.
Logged

Yoel Farkas

  • Classic LAB
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 141
  • eXpert Sound inc.
Re: Speaker Management - setup within
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2016, 02:31:43 pm »

There is also a separate mono output on the Expression.  I haven't played with it but there is both graphic and parametric available on all the outputs, as well as the matrix outputs Yoel refers to.

The path length for the tapped horns will be longer than the tops so you will probably need to delay the tops a bit. So the delay built into the Crown doesn't help although it could manage the LP/HP sub crossover functions.  Therefore you would need to run some arrangement of separate outputs on the Expression.  And then tweak both to do delay alignment to the backline.  Which sounds fussy to me.  Unless you want to do the aux fed sub thing, I would think a system DSP would be called for.
I'm doing the same thing, powered tops over passive subs.  I happened upon a Sabine (Xilica) processor used for a couple hundred which allowed me to retire my old BSS to back up duty.  You should be able to find something (not a DriveRack PA) decent used with a bit of looking and patience.
the active speaker has its build in crossover.
the subs, I-tech amps has crossovers as well
if you alignment i think the mixer could do that for you. and it is no need for outboard processing.

however, if you carry anyway a rack of amps it might be better to have an outboard DSP.
Logged
Yoel Farkas
Expert Sound inc.
Monroe, NY, USA

Will Cash

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
Re: Speaker Management - setup within
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2016, 06:21:29 pm »

Is there anything particular I should look for in a power conditioner?
Logged

Stephen Kirby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Speaker Management - setup within
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2016, 06:51:05 pm »

Is there anything particular I should look for in a power conditioner?
Yes, don't bother with one.  Just about any consumer "power conditioner" won't filter any audio frequency noise in the line (from bad neon lights or funky dimmers) or pass enough current to be useful.

Good solid connections with commercial grade Edison outlets are key.  Anything else is superfluous. 

If you have line voltage issues there are autotap transformers but they won't handle high power amps.  They can keep an unregulated tube guitar amp or ancient analog mixer at the proper voltage, but if you're running TH118s off a suitable amp, they won't help.

Look up "Poor Man's Distro" and find an electrician to build you one.  Common solid ground is your first defense against noise.
Logged

Mark Wilkinson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1019
Re: Speaker Management - setup within
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2016, 08:28:22 pm »

the active speaker has its build in crossover.
the subs, I-tech amps has crossovers as well
if you alignment i think the mixer could do that for you. and it is no need for outboard processing.

however, if you carry anyway a rack of amps it might be better to have an outboard DSP.

Hi Yoel,
When i look at the specs on the RCF 4Pro 6001 mains, with their -3db @50hz,
I say no way can I align these to a horn loaded sub without traditional HP filters ..(and of course delay...)

I would need at least a 24db/oct, set of honest HP filters, that could slide between 50hz and 100hz, to have any chance of mating with either the OS or TH118 subs.
IMO, there is just too much overlap, subs to mains, with mains dropping down to 50hz, that can't be aligned across such a broad range.(This is assuming subs are being used for more than <50hz....)

Plus I'm asking the mains to do too much lifting at the lower end of their specs...
Gotta get x-over up to 80-100, ....depending on how low the mains can crank without cracking up....

If you can make a pseudo min 24db/oct x-over at whatever freq you want with just PEQs, GEQs, and shelving.....very, very cool !
Waay beyond anything I could try to dial in ...

Oh, all my previous comments were predicated on a quick look at the Soundcraft SI manual, that makes it look like the SI's don't have very robust HP filters on outputs....
maybe wrong here....


Best, Mark
Logged

Yoel Farkas

  • Classic LAB
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 141
  • eXpert Sound inc.
Re: Speaker Management - setup within
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2016, 09:39:14 pm »

Hi Yoel,
When i look at the specs on the RCF 4Pro 6001 mains, with their -3db @50hz,
I say no way can I align these to a horn loaded sub without traditional HP filters ..(and of course delay...)

I would need at least a 24db/oct, set of honest HP filters, that could slide between 50hz and 100hz, to have any chance of mating with either the OS or TH118 subs.
IMO, there is just too much overlap, subs to mains, with mains dropping down to 50hz, that can't be aligned across such a broad range.(This is assuming subs are being used for more than <50hz....)

Plus I'm asking the mains to do too much lifting at the lower end of their specs...
Gotta get x-over up to 80-100, ....depending on how low the mains can crank without cracking up....

If you can make a pseudo min 24db/oct x-over at whatever freq you want with just PEQs, GEQs, and shelving.....very, very cool !
Waay beyond anything I could try to dial in ...

Oh, all my previous comments were predicated on a quick look at the Soundcraft SI manual, that makes it look like the SI's don't have very robust HP filters on outputs....
maybe wrong here....
Best, Mark
i totally agree with you.

However, i use all powered RCF and db tech systems. so i don't have amp racks (beside for my Danley system) i don't want to carry an outboard DSP. so i use the mixers LPF and HPF. but if you have amp racks Outboard DSP will provide more crossover options and more precise adjustments.

i just shared the way i'm doing it. 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 12:05:39 pm by Yoel Farkas »
Logged
Yoel Farkas
Expert Sound inc.
Monroe, NY, USA

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Speaker Management - setup within
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2016, 09:39:14 pm »


Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.051 seconds with 22 queries.