ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Building a new Church | Choosing Between Bose Roommatch an JBL | Input Wanted  (Read 8213 times)

Ray Aberle

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3434
  • Located in Vancouver, WA (and serves OR-WA-ID-BC)
    • Kelcema Audio

Not everybody is that way.

I have NEVER taken advantage of anybody-especially like that.

If they don't have enough money for what they are wanting, I will tell them and ask if there in anyway to come up with some more.

If they can't, I would discuss what some cost saving options are.

But I am not in sales-just engineering

I THINK he meant "Never tell them you have another $10K available to spend." Because if you do, they'll find things to add to your invoice to suck up that $10K.

-Ray
Logged
Kelcema Audio
Regional - Serving Pacific Northwest (OR, WA, ID, BC)

Clayton Ganzer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 52

On an install I worked on we installed the Bose RoomMatch speakers. Bose sent their recently retired lead engineer (Bose paid him out of their pocket for this one job) to come program, tune, and commission the system. After they finished I walked the room, it sounded terrible. Dead spots all over the room. The handoff from one array to the next made me feel dizzy and almost fall over. I made them take out their test equipment again and start taking measurements so there was no way to dispute what my ears were hearing. The Bose engineer, my engineer, and myself spent a couple of hours changing, measuring, analyzing, over and over again. We changed delay, phase, crossover points, ect., nothing made it better. On top of that, one of Boss' claims was they could do cardiod sub arrays, a huge plus for this customer. I can't remember their excuse, but Boss' engineer said it actually couldn't be done. I had finally had enough of their excuses and I started to lay into the engineer, I wanted him to admit the product was not good. I was quickly removed from the room by our sales guy and our engineer.
I kind of felt bad for the Boss guy, it wasn't his fault, you can't polish a turd.
The product was poorly designed & engineered, and couldn't deliver on what it claimed.
Thtat is my experience with that system, others may have had a different one.
Also, as others have said, that VRX rig is probably the wrong rig for you.
If 4 different companies got it so badly wrong, I wonder if there was some miscommunication or non-complete information given out when asking for bids. On the other hand, a good company, with good sales people, would have asked the proper question in order to get the correct information. You really need a seasoned expert that is looking out for you on this project, not someone who is just trying to sell you something.
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9045
  • Atlanta GA

I THINK he meant "Never tell them you have another $10K available to spend." Because if you do, they'll find things to add to your invoice to suck up that $10K.

-Ray
I have never done that, and neither have the companies I have worked for.

We tell the customer what a system will cost that meets their needs.

If they want to add something, then that is fine, but we have never (at least that I am aware of) filled up an order just to get the extra money.

I guess that is the difference when you work with a reputable company that believes in treated people fairly and as they would like to be treated.

And NOT just as an order with dollars attached to it
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Scott Carneval

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 992
    • Cenero Audio Visual

I have never done that, and neither have the companies I have worked for.

We tell the customer what a system will cost that meets their needs.

If they want to add something, then that is fine, but we have never (at least that I am aware of) filled up an order just to get the extra money.

I guess that is the difference when you work with a reputable company that believes in treated people fairly and as they would like to be treated.

And NOT just as an order with dollars attached to it

I actually prefer that customers NOT tell me their budget, at least not until I give them my first proposal. I would rather they just tell me their NEEDS, let me design a system to meet it, and then see how close we are. Sometimes we're under budget, sometimes we're way over budget, but at least we have a starting point and we didn't get there by chasing a number.

Then, if we're over budget we can talk about ways to cut back and what they would have to give up to get there. Or, if we're under budget we can talk about 'nice-to-have' items, but only if they want to. My goal is to provide a solution to your problems, and I don't really care about the price. If I spend 80% of your budget but don't solve your problems, I did you a disservice. If I went over budget by 20% but I hit every design criteria, you're going to be much happier in the long run.
Logged

Jonathan Johnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3110
  • Southwest Washington (state, not DC)

I actually prefer that customers NOT tell me their budget, at least not until I give them my first proposal. I would rather they just tell me their NEEDS, let me design a system to meet it, and then see how close we are. Sometimes we're under budget, sometimes we're way over budget, but at least we have a starting point and we didn't get there by chasing a number.

Then, if we're over budget we can talk about ways to cut back and what they would have to give up to get there. Or, if we're under budget we can talk about 'nice-to-have' items, but only if they want to. My goal is to provide a solution to your problems, and I don't really care about the price. If I spend 80% of your budget but don't solve your problems, I did you a disservice. If I went over budget by 20% but I hit every design criteria, you're going to be much happier in the long run.

This.

It is far more effective and a better use of funds to first determine your needs and then determine what equipment will fulfill those needs. Only after that do you start looking at the price; if the price is higher what you have available, then one of two things will happen: either you reevaluate your needs, or you manage to find the money you need. If the price is higher than you expected, your expectations had no valid basis.

When taken in the proper order, you are more likely to end up with the ideal solution than with a mediocre, inadequate, or inappropriate solution.

I've long advocated for determining needs and finding appropriate solutions before determining budgets. In churches and other not-for-profit organizations, when you have a clear plan forward the purse strings seem to loosen. People are more willing to donate money to a project if they can see exactly what you're planning to spend it on. If it's ambiguous with no clear determination of cost, the benefactors are likely to be stingy.
Logged
Stop confusing the issue with facts and logic!

David Allred

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1844

My point was if your budget is $100K, then that is the budget.  Don't say you have a budget of $100K, but are willing to spend an extra $10K.  You really should say that you have a budget of $110K.
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9045
  • Atlanta GA

I actually prefer that customers NOT tell me their budget, at least not until I give them my first proposal. I would rather they just tell me their NEEDS, let me design a system to meet it, and then see how close we are. Sometimes we're under budget, sometimes we're way over budget, but at least we have a starting point and we didn't get there by chasing a number.


I had a Church come to me once.

They say their sound system needed to be upgraded.

They held a meeting and voted and determined a budget.

Something told me to ask what they were looking for and an idea of budget.

They wanted a "mixer thing-new mics-new speakers".

They said their budget was $100 but might could go a little higher.

Sadly they had already used up their budget talking to me-----

They thought we could give a better price than Radio Shack.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

eric lenasbunt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 864
    • Bunt Backline Event Services, LLC

I actually prefer that customers NOT tell me their budget, at least not until I give them my first proposal. I would rather they just tell me their NEEDS, let me design a system to meet it, and then see how close we are. Sometimes we're under budget, sometimes we're way over budget, but at least we have a starting point and we didn't get there by chasing a number.

Then, if we're over budget we can talk about ways to cut back and what they would have to give up to get there. Or, if we're under budget we can talk about 'nice-to-have' items, but only if they want to. My goal is to provide a solution to your problems, and I don't really care about the price. If I spend 80% of your budget but don't solve your problems, I did you a disservice. If I went over budget by 20% but I hit every design criteria, you're going to be much happier in the long run.

Love this. I work by the same method. If I know it's a higher ticket (like $40k+) I might drop some hints at that in needs discussions, mostly to see if I get the loss of breath reaction. This has saved me a few times on wasting a ton of time on quotes for folks who had no real budget for what they wanted to do.
Logged

Scott Holtzman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6029
  • Ghost AV - Avon Lake, OH
    • Ghost Audio Visual Systems, LLC

Love this. I work by the same method. If I know it's a higher ticket (like $40k+) I might drop some hints at that in needs discussions, mostly to see if I get the loss of breath reaction. This has saved me a few times on wasting a ton of time on quotes for folks who had no real budget for what they wanted to do.

Qualifying customers, determining needs frankly these are core attributes of a good consultancy no matter what the discipline.

In every technical discipline there are practitioners at different levels of expertise and their fees are proportional to their ability to communicate and execute a plan.

The first level of folks are generally not even capable of completing a job without financial underwriting from their customer.   Since they are usually broke, sole practitioners their view is clouded that every decision is made under financial duress. 

The second level is the survivors of the first level, they have a few staff members, may or may not meet payroll on a consistent basis.  They deliver budget solutions.  They work but are rarely defined by performance criteria but by simple needs.  Connect to Internet, make noise, etc.

The third level have been around the block and start to move into a consultative role.  There are so many models but along the way many get attached to a brand and end up as a reseller.  Leads are exchanged.  The vendor supports the VAR to make sure the product is being deployed correctly. 

You get the idea, it escalates from there until you hit the A list shops.  They are A list because they have the resources to take on large projects and are bondable.  When you have to walk into a bid with a million dollar performance bond it tends to weed out the wannabe's.  The funny thing is there is generally a regression from the cutting edge at this point as the risk is too high.  You see mature proven solutions delivered at this level.  Rarely sexy. 

Then you have the no holes barred, they want the latest and are willing to pay and deal with the pain of early adoption.  There are firms that specialize in these customers also.

The key is that the projects are managed.  There is a clear design build process.  The client and the integrator have communicated to the point that they share a common vision.  You then manage to that outcome.

Getting that level of performance is far more expensive than most people realize and for a team doing a first build and usually production infrastructure is an afterthought.  It's just the speakers is the mindset of the uninitiated. 

The problem is exacerbated on church builds.  Older churches who are seeing worship styles transitions are not familiar with the details of the new production elements.  Hopefully these churches have retained a specialty architect or design build firm that can guide them down the path.  If they haven't then the designer will also not include adequate infrastructure in the design.

Young church's are often doing their first build and the budget is tight and experience is low.

The problem is that nobody is going to tell you they left the church because they con't not understand the message, or the music was intolerable.  It's also subconscious preference creating a bias.  The space is not comfortable for parishioners or performers.

It happens every day and it's a tragedy.  But it's a preventable one.

I suggested going to worship FX and I didn't see a response to that.   Especially if you can bring along someone to help bring back the message.

You (the OP) are faced with a daunting task to go back to the board and ask them to stop a project.  That will be hard to get support for. 

But what is the alternative, spending 100's of thousands of dollars on the wrong space.

Fix it now while you have the chance.



 
Logged
Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9045
  • Atlanta GA

Qualifying customers, determining needs frankly these are core attributes of a good consultancy no matter what the discipline.


That is the FIRST step.

A salesman should know what the "typical" company process and pricing is.

If does not fit into that, then they need to simply walk away.

Some customers are only about price, they don't care about quality of performance or service or quality of the install.

Cheap is all they want.

That is fine if that is your target market. 

There is a point that it simply is not worth doing.

I must admit there have been a couple of times that we met with the customer and the initial reaction was "this is a waste of time".  But in the end they good a good system and spent more-without us having to pull it from them. 

We asked what they were looking for and gave them a price and explained the price.

Once case was a BBQ place.

They wanted to know why our price was higher than the local music store quoted.

We asked what their "signature dish was".  They were a little confused-but said their ribs were the best.

"But I can get a Mcrib at McDonalds for a lot less" we said.

That was the end of the discussion.  They understood immediately and we got the install.  They it wasn't the same-but had the same "name"-ribs.

Just because something "appears" to be the same-at a lower price DOES NOT mean it is as good.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

ProSoundWeb Community


Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.033 seconds with 22 queries.