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Author Topic: Building a new Church | Choosing Between Bose Roommatch an JBL | Input Wanted  (Read 8212 times)

Scott Carneval

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The floor plan can be viewed from this dropbox link: https://db.tt/XL8rYHgv

Not sure the exact height but if I was to give my best guess it would be 50-60 feet.

Are budget is 130K for sound and video although we can go slightly above that, maybe +/- 10K.

Thanks sincerely! Let me know if you have any other questions

I pulled a few screen shots out of your plans. Quickly browsing the plans I didn't see a ceiling height. This is usually given on the Reflected Ceiling Plan as xx' Above Finished Floor, but I couldn't find it. It's probably buried in the notes somewhere, but viewing plans on a 15" laptop is less than ideal. I did see a wall height in the sanctuary ranging from 34' to 36', and looking at the section view of the sanctuary I was able to extrapolate some given measurements to estimate the ceiling height to be approx. 35'.

Your main seating area is roughly 450 seats, and the balcony is roughly another 450 seats. If I was working with you as an integrator on this project my first recommendation would be Danley Sound Labs.  Probably a few SH96 as the main boxes and maybe some SH95 and/or SM100/SM80 as various fills, depending on what it looks like when we model it. This should fall well within your budget.

I would seek out a Danley dealer in your area. You can check their website or email cooper@danleysoundlabs.com and he should be able to point you in the right direction. You should have no problem getting a Danley rep to bring a system out to demo. Danley engineers are very active on these forums, and now that I've opened the proverbial can of worms I believe they are free to chime in.
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Cailen Waddell

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The floor plan can be viewed from this dropbox link: https://db.tt/XL8rYHgv

Not sure the exact height but if I was to give my best guess it would be 50-60 feet.

Are budget is 130K for sound and video although we can go slightly above that, maybe +/- 10K.

Thanks sincerely! Let me know if you have any other questions

Ive just started to do some plan review for you.  I should add that part of my real day job is plan review for performance spaces to ensure needs of various parts of the organization I work for are met.  So I do this a fair amount.  Some thoughts in no particular order

Are you bidding the construction of the building?  If so - the specifications are not nearly comprehensive enough

Electrical - it would appear the lighting layout in the sanctuary is fine if you don't ever want to dim the house lights.  The model number of the lightolier products does not indicate a dimming capability, and that product even with the dimming capability is not going to dim the way an incandescent does.  If you want a smooth dim to black (and I think you will one day), its cheaper to do it right now.  Look at products from The Light Source.  Tracklights are not going to get you the illumination you will expect onstage, and certainly won't provide options for more contemporary worship in the future.  Its really important to get the structural points you need, as well as empty conduit now.  Its so much cheaper to do it now. 

I also don't think there is enough electricity to the building.  If you go to lighting, with modern equipment, a 100 A 3phase should suffice, but put the breaker in the main disconnect now, and then put a company switch in your equipment room so you are close. 

HVAC - there are no specs on allowable noise levels.  I would also want to see some calculations that take into account the BTU of the equipment that may be installed.  Heat is most important where you are located, but a mini split unit (or standard unit with economizer) may be appropriate for the equipment room, as you may need cooing in that room year around.

Sound = 2x 2" conduits isn't enough to the equipment rack IMHO.  Conduit is nearly free its so low cost.  Go ahead and run 4 @ 4", and find out how they are being routed, below the slab? you will have moisture issues potentially...  through the space?  then it might be a longer run.  Either way, a conduit for lighting, a conduit for sound, a conduit for video, and a spare conduit for visiting companies and expansion.

I have to run some errands but will jump back in some more - this is obviously very incomplete, and doesnt begin to touch on the sound system.
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Frank DeWitt

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Ive just started to do some plan review for you.  I should add that part of my real day job is plan review for performance spaces to ensure needs of various parts of the organization I work for are met.  So I do this a fair amount.  Some thoughts in no particular order

Sound = 2x 2" conduits isn't enough to the equipment rack IMHO.  Conduit is nearly free its so low cost.  Go ahead and run 4 @ 4", and find out how they are being routed, below the slab? you will have moisture issues potentially...  through the space?  then it might be a longer run.  Either way, a conduit for lighting, a conduit for sound, a conduit for video, and a spare conduit for visiting companies and expansion.

I have to run some errands but will jump back in some more - this is obviously very incomplete, and doesnt begin to touch on the sound system.

+++++ on the conduit.  No such thing as to much.  Times change and cables that haven't been invented yet will need to be pulled.  Speaking of pulling.  Pull extras.  Extra conductors in the AC conduit. Extra CAT5s  Lots of extra CAT5s  Right not you can run sound video, Lighting control,  and even  power over CAT5
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Cailen Waddell

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Ive just started to do some plan review for you.

More thoughts between meetings...

If you ever want to bring outside bands in you will need a way for them to get their gear to the stage.  A rear double door on the building with a clear path to the stage, with curb cuts and ramps to stage level will be your friend.  One day you might want to move that piano, so go ahead and figure out how that can work now.

Looking at the structural plates - I am not a structural engineer - I would be concerned about your roof capacity.  You are going to eventually (if you go to full production) want to put thousands of pounds of gear in the air...  Lets say maybe 3 ETC prodigy hoists, one front of house and 2 over stage.  Why prodigy?  their built in compression tube means only vertical loads are put on the structure meaning less steel is required.   Anyway, I would have your architect and structural engineer look at the specs and figure out the placement for them now, so putting them in later is easy.  Look at conduit and power for those as well.

Finally sound - the reason you really came here - I agree with scott that a point source solution would probably be the best mix of economics and quality coverage.  You could spend more, other ways, and not get appreciably better results. 

There is another discussion here on EASE models, and how they can be made to appear better than they are.  Read up on that, and then ask your 4 integrators to provide ease or other models of their choices.  And perhaps look at other choices for vendors.  Your budget is fine for the moment, you should be able to get a quality setup for that price.  Don't offer budget flexibility, let the vendors tell you why the extra $5K is worth it.

Good luck - let us know what other questions you have.


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Irvin Pribadi

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For the floor of the sanctuary:
- 18 JBL VRX 928LAs being split up into 4 arrays (2 with 5 boxes and 2 with 4)
- 4 JBL VRX 915S Line Array Subs

For the balcony:
- 4 JBL CBT70J-1 Line Arrays
- 4 JBL CBT70JE-1 Low frequency extension loudspeaker

I'm not sure what you mean by processing. Could you explain a bit?
I still don't know what our other integrator will be doing for the JBL system that he will design but that's one of them.

Wow, from your explanation this is a pretty good sized project.
Based on what you mention your A/V contractors are suggesting ... I'd drop them. What references or project experience did they have?

As others have mentioned, their APPROACH to come up with a solution and then suggesting these speaker choices seems very questionable.
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Alex Davidyuk

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Ive just started to do some plan review for you.  I should add that part of my real day job is plan review for performance spaces to ensure needs of various parts of the organization I work for are met.  So I do this a fair amount.  Some thoughts in no particular order

Are you bidding the construction of the building?  If so - the specifications are not nearly comprehensive enough

Electrical - it would appear the lighting layout in the sanctuary is fine if you don't ever want to dim the house lights.  The model number of the lightolier products does not indicate a dimming capability, and that product even with the dimming capability is not going to dim the way an incandescent does.  If you want a smooth dim to black (and I think you will one day), its cheaper to do it right now.  Look at products from The Light Source.  Tracklights are not going to get you the illumination you will expect onstage, and certainly won't provide options for more contemporary worship in the future.  Its really important to get the structural points you need, as well as empty conduit now.  Its so much cheaper to do it now. 

I also don't think there is enough electricity to the building.  If you go to lighting, with modern equipment, a 100 A 3phase should suffice, but put the breaker in the main disconnect now, and then put a company switch in your equipment room so you are close. 

HVAC - there are no specs on allowable noise levels.  I would also want to see some calculations that take into account the BTU of the equipment that may be installed.  Heat is most important where you are located, but a mini split unit (or standard unit with economizer) may be appropriate for the equipment room, as you may need cooing in that room year around.

Sound = 2x 2" conduits isn't enough to the equipment rack IMHO.  Conduit is nearly free its so low cost.  Go ahead and run 4 @ 4", and find out how they are being routed, below the slab? you will have moisture issues potentially...  through the space?  then it might be a longer run.  Either way, a conduit for lighting, a conduit for sound, a conduit for video, and a spare conduit for visiting companies and expansion.

I have to run some errands but will jump back in some more - this is obviously very incomplete, and doesnt begin to touch on the sound system.

I should have mentioned that the construction is already well under way.

I'll be in touch with the electrician about dimming interfaces.

As far as conduit goes, the 2 2 inch conduits are run in the floor. At this point in the construction, I think we can add more conduit without hesitation. We are only at the stage of putting up electrical conduits up as well as starting on HVAC.
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Cailen Waddell

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I should have mentioned that the construction is already well under way.

I'll be in touch with the electrician about dimming interfaces.

As far as conduit goes, the 2 2 inch conduits are run in the floor. At this point in the construction, I think we can add more conduit without hesitation. We are only at the stage of putting up electrical conduits up as well as starting on HVAC.

Get in there quick then...  even a change order now is cheaper than if drywall is already up...
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Jonathan Johnson

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As far as conduit goes, the 2 2 inch conduits are run in the floor.

Don't be surprised if you have moisture issues in the conduit, if the conduit is below the slab buried in the soil.

Moisture does not necessarily mean that the conduit leaks. What happens is that warm humid air (and you do get humidity in SD in the summer!) enters the conduit, then cools and the humidity condenses on the walls of the conduit.

That means that you'll need to seal the portals of the conduits. For conduits with permanently installed cabling, use a removable sealant (so you can remove it to add cabling later). For empty conduits, you might just cap them off, and use removable sealant when you run temporary cabling.

Sealing might not be a perfect solution, but it should significantly help the moisture problem. You don't want to pull a snake through your conduit only to discover that you've just drug the connectors through water.
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Stop confusing the issue with facts and logic!

Ivan Beaver

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Never ever tell someone that you might be willing to spend an extra $10K.  They will find ways to fill that void with all kinds of nice, and many times useless, toys.  If there are cost vs performance constraints, let them tell you.
Not everybody is that way.

I have NEVER taken advantage of anybody-especially like that.

If they don't have enough money for what they are wanting, I will tell them and ask if there in anyway to come up with some more.

If they can't, I would discuss what some cost saving options are.

But I am not in sales-just engineering
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Ivan Beaver

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Your main seating area is roughly 450 seats, and the balcony is roughly another 450 seats. If I was working with you as an integrator on this project my first recommendation would be Danley Sound Labs.  Probably a few SH96 as the main boxes and maybe some SH95 and/or SM100/SM80 as various fills, depending on what it looks like when we model it. This should fall well within your budget.

I would seek out a Danley dealer in your area. You can check their website or email cooper@danleysoundlabs.com and he should be able to point you in the right direction. You should have no problem getting a Danley rep to bring a system out to demo. Danley engineers are very active on these forums, and now that I've opened the proverbial can of worms I believe they are free to chime in.
You correct in some first approaches.

I would start with a 90x60 box in the center and exploded fills on the outside.

The height will determine a lot factors-so that is important.

Danley provides free system design (on the amplifier-processing-loudspeaker part).  You can contact chad@danleysoundlabs.com for more information.

The key to a good loudspeaker design is to use AS FEW LOUDSPEAKERS as possible.

The more you use-BY ANY MANUFACTURER will cause more interaction and lower the quality.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

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