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Author Topic: Building a new Church | Choosing Between Bose Roommatch an JBL | Input Wanted  (Read 8218 times)

Alex Davidyuk

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Hi there everyone,

My name is Alex Davidyuk. I mix sound and perform other tech related duties in my home church. Currently, our church is building a new church facility and I have a few questions regarding the sound system. Before I get into the questions, let me give you some context. Right now, I am working with 4 A/V integrators on the new system. Two of the four integrators will be using Bose Roommatch in their quotes and the other 2 are going with JBL. (One of them will be using a line array and the other I do not know at this point). I don't know if it's ethical for me to share the exact quotes with you guys but if you see nothing wrong with it then I can black out the names of the companys and other personal info and share the exact quotes with you for better context.

Some information about the facility itself:
- It seats around 900 people
- It's very "normal shaped" with good sigh lines everywhere (If you guys want, I can post the floor plan)
- Any other information you guys want, I can provide in the comments.

I'm not sure if it's appropriate to say what our budget is for A/V as I don't want to get in trouble, but if you guys don't see anything wrong with me giving our budget, let me know if that helps answer the questions.

What we will be doing with the sound system:
- Our youth group does full contemporary at youth services. (Electric Guitar, Bass, Acoustic Guitar, Electric Drums, Piano, Keyboard, and Vocals)
- For our Sunday services, we do a more traditional service. A couple people lead vocals with the piano playing for music although I think over time, it will also shift to a more contemporary services.
- Spoken word is very important in our services.
- This is me dreaming big--- Because of the magnitude of our church and how many people it seats, I hope that one day we can do an outreach to the whole city where we live and possibly bring in a band/artist to play on our system
- Let me know if you guys have any other questions about what we will be doing with the sound system and I'd be glad to answer

My Questions
1. What experiences have you had with both the Bose RM and the JBL Arrays?
2. For this application, what system would you choose and why? (Again, if you want the exact quotes, let me know because then you can see how much each system is and determine which one has better bang for buck)
3. Currently, we do not know what we will be doing with the ceiling of our new church. Some people are hoping that we do ceiling clouds for a "modern" look. I just don't want the room to get ruined acoustically by over treating it. What do you guys suggest? Starting off with nothing for the ceiling and then going from there or what? Also, there is supposed to be some ceiling treatment that we are supposed to spray that helps with fire protection and acoustics, does anyone know of where I could find this stuff online?

I can't think of anymore questions as of right now but I will ask if I have any. Please don't be afraid to ask me questions to get a better idea of the situation.

Thank you for your replies in advance, I hope we can get some good discussion going.

Thanks again,

Alex Davidyuk
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Lee Buckalew

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Hi there everyone,

My name is Alex Davidyuk. I mix sound and perform other tech related duties in my home church. Currently, our church is building a new church facility and I have a few questions regarding the sound system. Before I get into the questions, let me give you some context. Right now, I am working with 4 A/V integrators on the new system. Two of the four integrators will be using Bose Roommatch in their quotes and the other 2 are going with JBL. (One of them will be using a line array and the other I do not know at this point). I don't know if it's ethical for me to share the exact quotes with you guys but if you see nothing wrong with it then I can black out the names of the companys and other personal info and share the exact quotes with you for better context.

Some information about the facility itself:
- It seats around 900 people
- It's very "normal shaped" with good sigh lines everywhere (If you guys want, I can post the floor plan)
- Any other information you guys want, I can provide in the comments.

I'm not sure if it's appropriate to say what our budget is for A/V as I don't want to get in trouble, but if you guys don't see anything wrong with me giving our budget, let me know if that helps answer the questions.

What we will be doing with the sound system:
- Our youth group does full contemporary at youth services. (Electric Guitar, Bass, Acoustic Guitar, Electric Drums, Piano, Keyboard, and Vocals)
- For our Sunday services, we do a more traditional service. A couple people lead vocals with the piano playing for music although I think over time, it will also shift to a more contemporary services.
- Spoken word is very important in our services.
- This is me dreaming big--- Because of the magnitude of our church and how many people it seats, I hope that one day we can do an outreach to the whole city where we live and possibly bring in a band/artist to play on our system
- Let me know if you guys have any other questions about what we will be doing with the sound system and I'd be glad to answer

My Questions
1. What experiences have you had with both the Bose RM and the JBL Arrays?
2. For this application, what system would you choose and why? (Again, if you want the exact quotes, let me know because then you can see how much each system is and determine which one has better bang for buck)
3. Currently, we do not know what we will be doing with the ceiling of our new church. Some people are hoping that we do ceiling clouds for a "modern" look. I just don't want the room to get ruined acoustically by over treating it. What do you guys suggest? Starting off with nothing for the ceiling and then going from there or what? Also, there is supposed to be some ceiling treatment that we are supposed to spray that helps with fire protection and acoustics, does anyone know of where I could find this stuff online?

I can't think of anymore questions as of right now but I will ask if I have any. Please don't be afraid to ask me questions to get a better idea of the situation.

Thank you for your replies in advance, I hope we can get some good discussion going.

Thanks again,

Alex Davidyuk

What are the models of the JBL arrays?
For all arrays what is the cabinet compliment?
For JBL what is being specified for processing?

Lee
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Lee Buckalew
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Alex Davidyuk

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What are the models of the JBL arrays?
For all arrays what is the cabinet compliment?
For JBL what is being specified for processing?

Lee
For the floor of the sanctuary:
- 18 JBL VRX 928LAs being split up into 4 arrays (2 with 5 boxes and 2 with 4)
- 4 JBL VRX 915S Line Array Subs

For the balcony:
- 4 JBL CBT70J-1 Line Arrays
- 4 JBL CBT70JE-1 Low frequency extension loudspeaker

I'm not sure what you mean by processing. Could you explain a bit?


I still don't know what our other integrator will be doing for the JBL system that he will design but that's one of them.

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Scott Carneval

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For the floor of the sanctuary:
- 18 JBL VRX 928LAs being split up into 4 arrays (2 with 5 boxes and 2 with 4)
- 4 JBL VRX 915S Line Array Subs

For the balcony:
- 4 JBL CBT70J-1 Line Arrays
- 4 JBL CBT70JE-1 Low frequency extension loudspeaker

There are so many better products out on the market today that will run circles around the VRX. They are not a true line array. They are a constant curvature array and cannot get long enough to have true 'line array' characteristics for anything but the highest octaves. I'm not sure if you can actually do 5 boxes or if 4 is the limit. Either way, RUN, do not walk away from this quote.

For the $45k or so you're spending for all that VRX and CBT stuff you could get a really nice system.

I've never heard or used the RoomMatch stuff. It's supposed to be better than most Bose, but that still isn't saying much.

Where are you located? Maybe a member here can offer some assistance.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Alex Davidyuk

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There are so many better products out on the market today that will run circles around the VRX. They are not a true line array. They are a constant curvature array and cannot get long enough to have true 'line array' characteristics for anything but the highest octaves. I'm not sure if you can actually do 5 boxes or if 4 is the limit. Either way, RUN, do not walk away from this quote.

For the $45k or so you're spending for all that VRX and CBT stuff you could get a really nice system.

I've never heard or used the RoomMatch stuff. It's supposed to be better than most Bose, but that still isn't saying much.

Where are you located? Maybe a member here can offer some assistance.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm a bit confused by this reply. Are you saying that VRX is bad and that we should stay away from this quote or that it's good? Also why is it bad/good? Also, we are located in South Dakota.

Thanks,

Alex
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Jason Raboin

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I went to a Bose RM demo in Hartford, CT.  I was not at all impressed.  I would not accept it for anything I do.  That said, I was recently at a metal fab shop where they make the fly frames and they were churning them out, so people must be buying them.

At the demo, you could kind of a/b between the in house D&B rig and the RM.  The house system tech commented that it was like bringing a knife to a gun fight.  I have to agree.
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Jason Raboin
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Scott Carneval

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I'm a bit confused by this reply. Are you saying that VRX is bad and that we should stay away from this quote or that it's good? Also why is it bad/good? Also, we are located in South Dakota.

Thanks,

Alex

Sorry, I think I missed a comma, which may have led to the confusion.

The VRX isn't god awful, but there are much better products on the market at that same price point. I cannot think of a single circumstance where I would spec VRX for a new install. The fact that this is your integrators go-to box suggests they might not be qualified for the job.

You stated earlier that it is very 'normal shaped' with good sight lines everywhere. Do you have a floor plan or a drawing you can share? What is the ceiling height? That is important.

Can you share what your total budget is for the speakers/amps/processing?


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Alex Davidyuk

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Sorry, I think I missed a comma, which may have led to the confusion.

The VRX isn't god awful, but there are much better products on the market at that same price point. I cannot think of a single circumstance where I would spec VRX for a new install. The fact that this is your integrators go-to box suggests they might not be qualified for the job.

You stated earlier that it is very 'normal shaped' with good sight lines everywhere. Do you have a floor plan or a drawing you can share? What is the ceiling height? That is important.

Can you share what your total budget is for the speakers/amps/processing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The floor plan can be viewed from this dropbox link: https://db.tt/XL8rYHgv

Not sure the exact height but if I was to give my best guess it would be 50-60 feet.

Are budget is 130K for sound and video although we can go slightly above that, maybe +/- 10K.

Thanks sincerely! Let me know if you have any other questions
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Scott Holtzman

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The floor plan can be viewed from this dropbox link: https://db.tt/XL8rYHgv

Not sure the exact height but if I was to give my best guess it would be 50-60 feet.

Are budget is 130K for sound and video although we can go slightly above that, maybe +/- 10K.

Thanks sincerely! Let me know if you have any other questions

Alex,

Being new here and I am relatively a new comer myself to these forums  I want to point out to you that this is not your average forum.  You have stumbled into a room where the best and the brightest working in the top venues in the country, for artists you have heard, with the largest providers, in top market PAC's, in the amazing houses of worship and even a vendor that specializes in stadiums with 6 figure capacities that the owner and is right hand man will tell you anything you want to know about themselves, their products and how they do business.

When I came in here for the first time I had just tried my hand at providing production for local venues thinking my lifetime of experience audio somehow prepared me to do mobile events, expressing frustration after a gig I couldn't handle I was offered advice and consolation.  In two years I have gone from being a one man guy working with a few friends out of a run out minivan to running 10-15 shows a week, providing production support at a local chain of live music venues, working with some of the best artists in town and really having the time of my life, ready to retire from my primary vocation in a few years and do this full time.  I owe a large part of it to the advice and counsel I have received here.  I have received honest, considered, technically accurate information and salient business advice.

Lastly, there are a group of people here who consider production in a house of worship to be service to our Lord and that designing a system that delivers the word with clarity and consistently, is easy to operate for a volunteer staff and provide a long service life to be their most important duty.  Further, proper stewardship of the funds allocated is the highest priority.  I have been involved in HOW production since I was 13 years old, it was literally my first gig.  I volunteered at a mega church in Jacksonville and have served at all sizes of facilities.  I, and everyone else that has been around the block a few times have seen money thrown out the window, poorly designed systems that are a source of constant misery and derision in the decision making process that has challenged leadership teams to the core. 

The one thing these deployments have in common is someone wandering into this forum, or a shop etc. and asking if this is the right speaker for the job.   The speakers, while the most visible and to some the most visceral part of the signal chain the truth is you are designing a system.  Everything matters and a simple plan view drawing of a room is insufficient data to make anything but the most general of comments.  Your designer should be intimately familiar with your style of worship and performance, the design and materials used in the construction and furnishing of the space, the composition and management style of the production team and of course a clear budget and some authority to say it's too little or too much to meet your goals. 

If your integrator is not doing those things, or you are comparing blind quotes from RFC's sent with a set of drawings you are heading in the wrong direction.  I certainly agree that the VRX's, even with the latest V5 tuning are at best a mediocre product in category defined by mediocrity and designed for use by operators that can't afford a real line array but seem to think that just because it's what they see most often it has to be what they need too.

The pendulum is shifting and especially for fixed installs point source (convention for lack of another way of simplifying) devices are once again being seen as the superior choice.  The best sound comes from a single speaker as it has no other speakers to interfere and work with.  Everything else is a compromise, make the proper design choices is part engineering and part art.

So please listen to these folks, shop around more, visit some other facilities.  If you can a demonstration is being held in Kentucky I believe by PSW Sept. 21-22.  Many vendors will be there with a live demo.  If you can attend it would be a huge benefit to you.  Here is a link from the banner LINKY

I wish you great success for your project and congregation.  Thanks for taking the time to read this.

« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 09:28:12 am by Mac Kerr »
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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The floor plan can be viewed from this dropbox link: https://db.tt/XL8rYHgv


Are budget is 130K for sound and video although we can go slightly above that, maybe +/- 10K.



Never ever tell someone that you might be willing to spend an extra $10K.  They will find ways to fill that void with all kinds of nice, and many times useless, toys.  If there are cost vs performance constraints, let them tell you.
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