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[Goerge Thomas]

Hello all,

Fun situation I am in. I have a permanent venue that does concerts outdoors for 1-350 people and we have been running 4 EV QRX 212s as tops with proper power and processing. They are ground stacked with the lowest portion of the box 5 feet above the audience. These sound great for the most part with 2 per side. My venue decided to buy 8 JBL VRX 932LA-1s and will fly 4 per side with the lowest box being 15 feet above people's heads instead of the 2 QRX boxes per side.  (area is 100X70) Forget about CCA (constant curvature array) and coverage and install and flying versus ground stacking. Putting 8 of these VRX boxes up against 4 QRX 212s I am trying to see if I should expect equal or better sound quality assuming everything else is about perfectly the same variable wise and the install is correct. I sit at FOH around 60 feet and would like to know opinions on the VRX 932 sound versus the QRX 212 sound. I would describe the QRX as a fairly smooth if not almost a rather "hifi" sounding type box run passively. I have heard other people describe the VRXs as having harsh highs and this concerns me. So let me know your thoughts, this will be bands of all genres and canned music and speech... once again for DB level and coverage references.. the 4 qrx 212s covered well and were loud enough for our needs.

By the way, it was not my choice to buy them and will not be my choice to keep using the QRX boxes. So I am looking for opinions on my future rig. They bought it because "line array!" and because many more riders would accept 8 VRX boxes than would ever consider 4 QRX boxes. SO they made that call, not me. First thing I will do is stick 2 VRXs on a pole together and play music through it with a QRX next to it to A/B and compare sonically.

[Scott Holtzman]

Hello all,

Fun situation I am in. I have a permanent venue that does concerts outdoors for 1-350 people and we have been running 4 EV QRX 212s as tops with proper power and processing. They are ground stacked with the lowest portion of the box 5 feet above the audience. These sound great for the most part with 2 per side. My venue decided to buy 8 JBL VRX 932LA-1s and will fly 4 per side with the lowest box being 15 feet above people's heads instead of the 2 QRX boxes per side.  (area is 100X70) Forget about CCA (constant curvature array) and coverage and install and flying versus ground stacking. Putting 8 of these VRX boxes up against 4 QRX 212s I am trying to see if I should expect equal or better sound quality assuming everything else is about perfectly the same variable wise and the install is correct. I sit at FOH around 60 feet and would like to know opinions on the VRX 932 sound versus the QRX 212 sound. I would describe the QRX as a fairly smooth if not almost a rather "hifi" sounding type box run passively. I have heard other people describe the VRXs as having harsh highs and this concerns me. So let me know your thoughts, this will be bands of all genres and canned music and speech... once again for DB level and coverage references.. the 4 qrx 212s covered well and were loud enough for our needs.

By the way, it was not my choice to buy them and will not be my choice to keep using the QRX boxes. So I am looking for opinions on my future rig. They bought it because "line array!" and because many more riders would accept 8 VRX boxes than would ever consider 4 QRX boxes. SO they made that call, not me. First thing I will do is stick 2 VRXs on a pole together and play music through it with a QRX next to it to A/B and compare sonically.

Will you be posting the QRX's for sale?

As far as opinion.  I occasionally work at a venue just about the same size with the 212's, love them.  I also have run the 932's with and without V5.  With V5 processing  it is at best a lateral move.

From a coverage and level standpoint you are going to gain a bunch of headroom if the old system covered the area and ran at the levels desired by the venue.

In my opinion they are "touchy" and very hot on the high end. 

After hanging out in these forums I have listened far more critically.  To my ear, even a well processed line array will never have the vocal clarity of a single source.  You will chase the EQ and mix and generally work harder to get the vocals ride on top.  Then you will fall into the trap of compressing the shit out of everything so you can get all the elements out in the mix but you lose so much of the live show sound. 

[Goerge Thomas]

Will you be posting the QRX's for sale?

As far as opinion.  I occasionally work at a venue just about the same size with the 212's, love them.  I also have run the 932's with and without V5.  With V5 processing  it is at best a lateral move.

From a coverage and level standpoint you are going to gain a bunch of headroom if the old system covered the area and ran at the levels desired by the venue.

In my opinion they are "touchy" and very hot on the high end. 

After hanging out in these forums I have listened far more critically.  To my ear, even a well processed line array will never have the vocal clarity of a single source.  You will chase the EQ and mix and generally work harder to get the vocals ride on top.  Then you will fall into the trap of compressing the shit out of everything so you can get all the elements out in the mix but you lose so much of the live show sound.

The QRXs will not be going up for sale at this point. They will be put in another room. My other question would be if you had the budget of the 8 VRX units and had to buy a fox for the same price that was either constant curvature or line array style, what would you look into instead? Roughly 7.5K they bought 8 of these plus rigging frames for (very very used) Their biggest concern is being rider friendly for B and C level acts and NOT buying an old box like KF 650/850 or turbosound flood/flashlights not matter what I tell them...I've quite liked the sound of the QSC KLAs but heard no other budget CCA or Line array box enough to have an idea.

[Stephen Kirby]

The KLA might sound nice and smooth or polite in a demo but I've heard people pushing them in a local rock venue.  No clarity at all.  The times I've heard 932s they've had the classic JBL forwardness.  Which is probably easier to tame than trying to get vocals out front with the KLAs.

[John Chiara]

The QRXs will not be going up for sale at this point. They will be put in another room. My other question would be if you had the budget of the 8 VRX units and had to buy a fox for the same price that was either constant curvature or line array style, what would you look into instead? Roughly 7.5K they bought 8 of these plus rigging frames for (very very used) Their biggest concern is being rider friendly for B and C level acts and NOT buying an old box like KF 650/850 or turbosound flood/flashlights not matter what I tell them...I've quite liked the sound of the QSC KLAs but heard no other budget CCA or Line array box enough to have an idea.

You have rider issues on an installed system for acts playing to 350 people? I would rather see a trap system on a spec than a faux array. How does that vertical dispersion make sense? Who decided this?

[Don T. Williams]

It sounds like a done deal. 

Score:    Line array on tech rider . . . 1.
           Audio quality and physics . . . 0.

[Tim McCulloch]

Hi Goerge-

JBL has prediction software for the VRX series:

http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/VRXLACSetup_v1-0-0-0.zip

I strongly suggest you download, install, and use it to determine the coverage provided.  It's possible that 4/side will either play to the rafters or put a whole bunch of sound down on the stage, or miss a whole bunch of audience UNLESS you do this.  It could well be that 3/side will do what is needed.

That said, if this were my room I'd be telling acts "the installed system is QRX, and any change to the PA will at artist's expense (deducted from their fee)."

Any act that rejects a KF650 rig will likely reject VRX (if the act is specifying a line array, they probably know VRX is NOT a line array).  I doubt anyone on your board of directors even had that as a passing thought.  If I were a BE, I'd happily accept a properly installed/deployed QRX rig over VRX any day of the week.

I take it you are the technical person at a theater or performing arts facility...

[Ivan Beaver]

Maybe I am missing something here.

Apparently you have more than 1 room involved.

So in "room A" (the room in question) you have a system that is doing the job fine (from what I read).

So "somebody" wants to take that system out-put it in room B and put another system in room A.

Is the current room A system proper for room B?

Why take a working system out, and move it?

Why not just put a new system in room B?

And when talking about a "proper" system, the FIRST thing that SHOULD be considered is-"Is the coverage correct for the room"

If it is not, then nothing else matters.

But if "somebody" just "has" to have a particular product, whether or not it is correct for the room or does the job properly, then by all means let them spend their money.

But reserve the old "told you so" for your defense.

But VERY OFTEN, people will overlook actual defects in the performance of a system, simply because the new system gives them some sort of "feel good" because they bought it.

VERY RARELY does anybody admit they made a bad decision.

They just start looking for others to make them feel good about their decision.  You see it hear all the time.

People will buy a system, then ask for opinions.  When the opinions don't go the way they way-they get very defensive about the purchase.

Maybe they should have looked for opinions BEFORE purchasing--------

[Goerge Thomas]

Hi Goerge-

JBL has prediction software for the VRX series:

http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/VRXLACSetup_v1-0-0-0.zip

I strongly suggest you download, install, and use it to determine the coverage provided.  It's possible that 4/side will either play to the rafters or put a whole bunch of sound down on the stage, or miss a whole bunch of audience UNLESS you do this.  It could well be that 3/side will do what is needed.

That said, if this were my room I'd be telling acts "the installed system is QRX, and any change to the PA will at artist's expense (deducted from their fee)."

Any act that rejects a KF650 rig will likely reject VRX (if the act is specifying a line array, they probably know VRX is NOT a line array).  I doubt anyone on your board of directors even had that as a passing thought.  If I were a BE, I'd happily accept a properly installed/deployed QRX rig over VRX any day of the week.

I take it you are the technical person at a theater or performing arts facility...

Unfortunately, yes. That's me. Everyone here is right. Bands so far just want to see JBL "Line Array type" system installed at X venue with a hang of 4 per side. I did not make the choice nor do I have the money to! I will play with the JBL prediction software. I did think 4 a side was going to be too much with 60 degrees.... I considered taking 2 and doing an LCR setup with 3 per side and 2 in the middle... all 8 are already bought.

Now the fun part of this. My employer also somehow thought buying 6 used Vertec 4888 boxes ($3500 each) would put us into the next level for our ballroom. Don't even get me started on having 8 VRX932s and 6 VT4888s.... we could have had such better systems for the money...Now I get to deal with deploying that as well with no actual processor besides 31 band eq's, old school 3 way analog crossovers and an X32. Someone put me out of my misery. But at the end of the day we now have "line arrays" and that brings in business.....This will be the subject of my next post! Can't wait to talk about that.

Ivan, you are 100% correct. We have 3 rooms. Our A rig (QRX) is going into our C room, the VT4888 into the A room and the VRX rig into the B room. Before this we only had sound for our B room with the QRX rig. They should have asked me before but someone got too excited with these deals they found and bought without talking to me. Now I certainly will do my best to deploy and operate but will reserve the told you so for a later date....

Thanks for the responses so far.

[Scott Olewiler]

But at the end of the day we now have "line arrays" and that brings in business.....

And everyone here who is turning a profit knows that what makes money does not always make sense sound-wise. 

[ProSoundWeb Community]