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Author Topic: Any rules of thumb for installing speakers in a box-type room?  (Read 5055 times)

g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Any rules of thumb for installing speakers in a box-type room?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2016, 08:22:23 pm »

Yes, but that's in addition to the pair, so besides another box and mounting hardware, there's also another amp and another channel of EQ to add in--unless I'm misunderstanding Ivan's suggestion. This would add at least CA$1000-1500, and I can't see my clients spending that much more for what would be perceived as an incremental improvement. Even if the front/side fills were run from a single channel, the cost of the extra single speaker alone would be more than they would want to pay.

So you're opting to support their preference for cheap over correct.  Is this the path you want to take?  I prefer to do a proper design over bowing to budget pressure.  IME such organizations always find money for what they want and seldom spend it on what they need.

You just have to decide which side of things you can live with....what's right or what's cheaper.

Edit:

I dispute your cost figures.  They seem to be posted to support your assertion that your two speaker solution is the only one.  With a firmly established budget a qualified designer should be able to implement the LCR config.  And it may be possible to re-purpose the existing pair and other components, but you have yet to post that type of information.

Please don't use supposed penury as a technical argument. 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 08:30:25 pm by dick rees »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Any rules of thumb for installing speakers in a box-type room?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2016, 09:19:49 pm »



I agree, but most of the schools are on tight budgets (always an uphill battle), and they're more interested in clarity and coverage than localization. If it could be done for just a few hundred dollars more it would be feasible, but I don't think it would be worth any more that that to them.
And CLARITY is EXACTLY WHY I start with a center location.

You don't have the interference from 2 speakers covering the same area (as you would with speakers on the sides).

The coverage is much better also with less energy bouncing around.

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Steven Welwood

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Re: Any rules of thumb for installing speakers in a box-type room?
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2016, 09:31:58 pm »

So you're opting to support their preference for cheap over correct.  Is this the path you want to take?  I prefer to do a proper design over bowing to budget pressure.  IME such organizations always find money for what they want and seldom spend it on what they need.

You just have to decide which side of things you can live with....what's right or what's cheaper.

Edit:

I dispute your cost figures.  They seem to be posted to support your assertion that your two speaker solution is the only one.  With a firmly established budget a qualified designer should be able to implement the LCR config.  And it may be possible to re-purpose the existing pair and other components, but you have yet to post that type of information.

Please don't use supposed penury as a technical argument.


I really debated with myself on whether to post my question or not, because I figured there was a good chance of it turning into this. Ideally, I would be able to put in the perfect number of speakers at the perfect locations for every client. But you know what? That will often cost more than they have available, so yes, I have to take the cheaper path. I can advise them that another speaker or two would be better. If they don't think it's worth it, do I walk away? No, I try to make the best with what I have. If that means I'm "bowing to budget pressure," then so be it.

You say I'm asserting that my two speaker solution is the only one. I'm not. I just haven't seen a better solution that won't cost significantly more.

You seem to be asserting that the 3-speaker solution is the only one. I won't disagree that it would be slightly better, but I disagree that it's the only solution. I wouldn't be serving my clients well if I recommended a system that they've already said is out of the budget. Like I said, I can advise them that 3 speakers would be better, but I'm not paying for it--they are.

I've been in plenty of gyms that sounded good with two speakers on the long wall, with very even coverage. I recently changed out a pair of speakers using the location of the old pair (but with better aim), and the result was 100 times better than what they had before. Would a centre speaker have helped? Sure, but not enough to justify the price difference.

I appreciate the wealth of knowledge that the "senior members" of this forum share with others with less experience, but too often it seems like they think their reality is everyone's reality. There is usually more than one way to get a job done. Maybe there's one perfect way, but if another way can get 90% of the results at 70% of the cost, that way will usually win out.

I'm not using a limited budget as a "technical argument." I'm using it because it's a reality.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Any rules of thumb for installing speakers in a box-type room?
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2016, 10:16:19 pm »

Steven...

What is in there now?  I have often simply had existing speakers brought back to spec for a nominal cost, then re-used it as part of a better design.  If this is at all possible then your idea that an enhanced single center design may go out the window.  This takes full advantage of whatever meager monies may avail.

I'd advise not being an enabler for cheaping out no matter who the client.  Push for the right design with the right gear.  In the long run it will be less costly than trial and error resulting from "budget first" installs that fall short of the mark.

As to whether or not to post your question there's every chance that you've posted the wrong question or at least prejudiced discussion by limiting things to a two speaker system.  The "rule of thumb" would be to avoid overlapping coverage.  The separated two speaker deployments both violate this rule.


You can dismiss my suggestions and experience if you like, but if you don't listen to Ivan you're missing the boat.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 10:21:32 pm by dick rees »
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Steven Welwood

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Re: Any rules of thumb for installing speakers in a box-type room?
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2016, 10:38:18 pm »

Unfortunately the current speakers are ancient, and the tweeters are blown.

Yes, I likely did prejudice the discussion, because two speakers is probably the maximum the budget will allow for. That said, I will look into the possibility of a centre speaker, in case there is some way we can get it done.

Thank you, Dick and Ivan, for your advice. I will keep it in mind going forward.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Any rules of thumb for installing speakers in a box-type room?
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2016, 11:04:37 pm »

Unfortunately the current speakers are ancient, and the tweeters are blown.

I am unaware of any brand/model of loudspeaker marketed under the name of "Ancient".

If you're even half serious about a proper, economical solution the least you could do is provide the information requested.

If these were quality speakers in the beginning it is very probable that repairing and re-using them will do a decent job.  You could even place them both in the center splayed out IF they're of any quality at all.

But if you're making your nut by selling them new gear then this is not within such a business model.  There will be a way to make it work within their budget...if you open your mind.
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Steven Welwood

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Re: Any rules of thumb for installing speakers in a box-type room?
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2016, 01:25:50 am »

I forgot to mention in my last post that the school wants speakers that can handle a lot more power. They regularly tried to get more volume out of them than they could give, which is probably why the highs are gone. Even if they can be repaired, they aren't the right speakers for the job.

When I visited the school there was no lift available to get close to the speakers and they didn't have any information about them. All I have to go on is that they are Toa, and the picture below. I looked through Toa's discontinued library and couldn't find a match, but maybe I just missed it.


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David Allred

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Re: Any rules of thumb for installing speakers in a box-type room?
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2016, 07:08:39 am »

Why not bring the 2 speakers (old repaired or new) into a center LR array?  Your layout doesn't show any forward tilt and neither does the picture imply any.  It is hard to get volume when it is firing over the heads of the audience.
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Lee Douglas

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Re: Any rules of thumb for installing speakers in a box-type room?
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2016, 12:06:50 pm »

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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Any rules of thumb for installing speakers in a box-type room?
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2016, 02:55:24 pm »

TOA SL-222

90 x 40 horn with a Piezo driver

http://www.toa-products.com/international/download/spec/sl-122_cs1e.pdf

Actually (according to the pic) it would be a 222.  SPL max @ 1m figures out between 124 and 129 dB depending on how they're powered.  The only real gotcha is that the piezo tweeter crosses over from the dual 12's at 5Khz.

In good operating condition they should be OK to fill the front corners of the seating area while a single 110 degree center speaker does the real work.  I like JBL CBT for a single center speaker in this case.  The matching LF  module can be added at any later date.

Go for the sound.  Pay what it costs.  Done. 

Alternative is 2 or 3 blind, budget-limited stabs at it likely totaling double or more what it costs to get it right the first time.
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