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Author Topic: Neutrik True1  (Read 7059 times)

Nitin Sidhu

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Re: Neutrik True1
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2016, 01:55:41 pm »

We are all true 1. I'll try and post some pictures tomorrow.

The initial True1 connectors still rarely fail, the screws holding the wires come loose. The newer one have Torx8 screws, and they have been solid so far. I don't know what the difference is.

i was looking for an alternative to C-form connectors, and this was ideal. Owing to being a small shop, we can barely manage to hold the cost of small purchases.
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Neutrik True1
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2016, 03:00:05 pm »

IIRC, SO (extra hard service) is required by the NEC in a theater space where it might be walked on or have something roll over it. SJ is only allowed when protected by a raceway.  At least that's what I think Mac and others have said and cited as to being Code.
I finally got to speak to someone at Neutrik about this SJOOW vs SOOW question, and he directed me to 520.68 of the NEC. I've pasted it below in blue. According to my phone discussion, there was a change in the code allowing the use of 12-gauge SJOOW for our portable stage applications, but that's not how I'm interpreting the code.  A cursory reading suggests that SOOW (hard service) insulation would be required rather than SJOOW (Junior Service). And they did confirm that the True1 won't accept 12 Gauge SOOW but will accept the thinner SJOOW cable.

Perhaps it's how SOOW vs. SJOOW service ratings are being interpreted. Since SJOOW is rated for 300 volts and SOOW is rated for 600 volts, for our 120-volt distro the SJOOW is certainly within voltage specs. Maybe the answer lies in UL-1573 which discusses service ratings of cable for theater. See http://ulstandards.ul.com/standard/?id=1573

 520.68 Conductors for Portables .68 Conductors for Portables.
(A) Conductor Type Conductor Type.
(1) General. Flexible conductors, including cable extensions, used to supply portable stage equipment shall be listed extra-hard usage cords or cables.
(2) Stand Lamps. Listed, hard usage cord shall be permitted to supply stand lamps where the cord is not subject to physical damage and is protected by an overcurrent device rated at not over 20 amperes.
(3) High-Temperature Applications. A special assembly of conductors in sleeving not longer than 1.0 m (3.3 ft) shall be permitted to be employed in lieu of flexible cord if the individual wires are stranded and rated not less than 125C (257F) and the outer sleeve is glass fiber with a wall thickness of at least 0.635 mm (0.025 in.).
Portable stage equipment requiring flexible supply conductors with a higher temperature rating where one end is permanently attached to the equipment shall be permitted to employ alternate, suitable conductors as determined by a qualified testing laboratory and recognized test standards.
(4) Breakouts. Listed, hard usage (junior hard service) cords shall be permitted in breakout assemblies where all of the following conditions are met:
(1) The cords are utilized to connect between a single multipole connector containing two or more branch circuits and multiple 2-pole, 3-wire connectors.
(2) The longest cord in the breakout assembly does not exceed 6.0 m (20 ft).
(3) The breakout assembly is protected from physical damage by attachment over its entire length to a pipe, truss, tower, scaffold, or other substantial support structure.
(4) All branch circuits feeding the breakout assembly are protected by overcurrent devices rated at not over 20 amperes.
(B) Conductor Ampacity. The ampacity of conductors shall be as given in 400.5, except multiconductor, listed, extra-hard usage portable cords that are not in direct contact with equipment containing heat-producing elements shall be permitted to have their ampacity determined by Table 520.44. Maximum load current in any conductor with an ampacity determined by Table 520.44 shall not exceed the values in Table 520.44.
Exception: Where alternate conductors are allowed in 520.68(A)(3), their ampacity shall be as given in the appropriate table in this Code for the types of conductors employed.
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Mike Sokol
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frank kayser

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Re: Neutrik True1
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2016, 05:53:32 pm »





Mike,
In no way I read the code (pasted below) do I see where SJOOW cable can be used on the ground i.e., stage stringers.
Also, it would seem to me that having an inventory containing SJOOW and SOOW would create a whole new set of problems for fairly minimal cost and/or weight reductions.
frank



I finally got to speak to someone at Neutrik about this SJOOW vs SOOW question, and he directed me to 520.68 of the NEC. I've pasted it below in blue. According to my phone discussion, there was a change in the code allowing the use of 12-gauge SJOOW for our portable stage applications, but that's not how I'm interpreting the code.  A cursory reading suggests that SOOW (hard service) insulation would be required rather than SJOOW (Junior Service). And they did confirm that the True1 won't accept 12 Gauge SOOW but will accept the thinner SJOOW cable.

Perhaps it's how SOOW vs. SJOOW service ratings are being interpreted. Since SJOOW is rated for 300 volts and SOOW is rated for 600 volts, for our 120-volt distro the SJOOW is certainly within voltage specs. Maybe the answer lies in UL-1573 which discusses service ratings of cable for theater. See http://ulstandards.ul.com/standard/?id=1573

 520.68 Conductors for Portables .68 Conductors for Portables.
(A) Conductor Type Conductor Type.
(1) General. Flexible conductors, including cable extensions, used to supply portable stage equipment shall be listed extra-hard usage cords or cables.
(2) Stand Lamps. Listed, hard usage cord shall be permitted to supply stand lamps where the cord is not subject to physical damage and is protected by an overcurrent device rated at not over 20 amperes.
(3) High-Temperature Applications. A special assembly of conductors in sleeving not longer than 1.0 m (3.3 ft) shall be permitted to be employed in lieu of flexible cord if the individual wires are stranded and rated not less than 125C (257F) and the outer sleeve is glass fiber with a wall thickness of at least 0.635 mm (0.025 in.).
Portable stage equipment requiring flexible supply conductors with a higher temperature rating where one end is permanently attached to the equipment shall be permitted to employ alternate, suitable conductors as determined by a qualified testing laboratory and recognized test standards.
(4) Breakouts. Listed, hard usage (junior hard service) cords shall be permitted in breakout assemblies where all of the following conditions are met:
(1) The cords are utilized to connect between a single multipole connector containing two or more branch circuits and multiple 2-pole, 3-wire connectors.
(2) The longest cord in the breakout assembly does not exceed 6.0 m (20 ft).
(3) The breakout assembly is protected from physical damage by attachment over its entire length to a pipe, truss, tower, scaffold, or other substantial support structure.
(4) All branch circuits feeding the breakout assembly are protected by overcurrent devices rated at not over 20 amperes.
(B) Conductor Ampacity. The ampacity of conductors shall be as given in 400.5, except multiconductor, listed, extra-hard usage portable cords that are not in direct contact with equipment containing heat-producing elements shall be permitted to have their ampacity determined by Table 520.44. Maximum load current in any conductor with an ampacity determined by Table 520.44 shall not exceed the values in Table 520.44.
Exception: Where alternate conductors are allowed in 520.68(A)(3), their ampacity shall be as given in the appropriate table in this Code for the types of conductors employed.

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Erik Jerde

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Re: Neutrik True1
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2016, 01:59:46 am »

Even if Neutrik is correct on this one (which based on the code citation you posted I don't think it is) I still think it's a bonehead move to deploy a product like this into a market where it's incompatible with the standard operating procedures of that market.  It leads to discussions like this where experienced and influential users identify the failing and then recommend against using the product.
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Cailen Waddell

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Re: Neutrik True1
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2016, 08:06:19 am »

I suppose the argument could be made that the power from one of my breakouts, that is SJ and daisy chains through several LED units, with the length not exceeding more than 20' is part of the breakout but I'd call bullshit on that in a second. 

That said I have never seen an AHJ challenge SJ...  We have about 2000' of powercon jumpers that are SJ as well as most of our extension cords, breakouts, etc....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Neutrik True1
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2016, 09:52:29 am »

Even if Neutrik is correct on this one (which based on the code citation you posted I don't think it is) I still think it's a bonehead move to deploy a product like this into a market where it's incompatible with the standard operating procedures of that market.  It leads to discussions like this where experienced and influential users identify the failing and then recommend against using the product.
I've asked Neutrik to send me some True1 connectors to experiment with. I don't know if there's a workaround, but who knows?
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Mike Sokol
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Neutrik True1
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2016, 09:58:20 am »

My Neutrik contact also told me to look at this Control Booth forum thread for a discussion of the NEC revision allowing SJ rated cable under some circumstances. However, I don't think that has anything to do with our typical stage power distribution. https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/new-rules-on-fixture-supply-cords-ul-1573.34464/#post-299512

Comments?
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Mike Sokol
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frank kayser

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Re: Neutrik True1
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2016, 07:12:05 pm »

My Neutrik contact also told me to look at this Control Booth forum thread for a discussion of the NEC revision allowing SJ rated cable under some circumstances. However, I don't think that has anything to do with our typical stage power distribution. https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/new-rules-on-fixture-supply-cords-ul-1573.34464/#post-299512

Comments?


Quote from the Control Booth website: (emphasis mine)
"This revision allows Hard Usage cord (type SJO and derivatives) as luminaire supply cords 1m or less in length. This does not apply to jumpers, only to the cords that are permanently attached to the fixture or those that terminate in an "appliance connector" that mates with a panel-mount inlet on the fixture such as a PowerCon."

I believe the horse is dead, and the beatings should cease.


frank
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 12:38:13 am by frank kayser »
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Re: Neutrik True1
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2016, 07:12:05 pm »


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