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Author Topic: Replacing 4x PRX718XLF with 2x RCF SUB 8004?  (Read 6903 times)

Trevor Jalla

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Replacing 4x PRX718XLF with 2x RCF SUB 8004?
« on: May 23, 2016, 10:24:02 am »

Hi all,

Long time lurker, first post here. I'm a small sticks-on-subs operator running 4x RCF NX M10As over 4x JBL PRX718XLFs for weddings, small ballrooms and events. I primarily run IEMs (Sennheiser EW300s), desk is a Soundcraft Expression 1 + Mini Stagebox 32.

Depending on the splay/coverage needs I also have 4x DB Tech D12HP tops, and run the NX boxes and downfill/infill.

The PRX sub actually sounds good for my needs - clear and deep, not "notey". I'm wondering however - if there is there a single 18" that will perform equally to pair of PRX718XLF? I'm thinking in the range of the RCF SUB 8004. So far have been using powered boxes, but will consider passive+amp.

Looking for a short-term lateral move in SPL and sound quality, that I can expand on in the future with another pair of the same. Budget and ROI practicalities with probably prevent me getting into touring grade level, but any suggestions appreciated.

Thank you.
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Luke Geis

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Re: Replacing 4x PRX718XLF with 2x RCF SUB 8004?
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2016, 01:02:47 am »

Welllllllllll.......... I think you should stay with the PRX subs honestly. 4 of them should provide plenty of boom and are honestly good sounding. If the goal is to have one brand then it would make sense to go RCF, but they are not as common and Specs seem to show that they are not the flattest in response. They are also much more expensive. SPL is about the same so not a huge step up. It is a parallel purchase at best. A couple db's is not anything to hoot and holler about. For the same money you could get the JBL SRX 818SP and have something that performs really well, gets about the same SPL, but is flatter in response.

You will be hard pressed to find an acceptable single 18" sub that performs like a dual 18". 132-136db is about the going SPL these days with a single 18". Don't fool yourself, 2-3db isn't a make or break amount of SPL. The JBL offerings are about the best there is right now, dollar for dollar. RCF makes some great stuff, but not everything they make is such.

From an ROI standpoint, buying a name isn't always a smart move, this is especially true with short term purchases. If you can demand the work, it probably doesn't matter what you have. It is best to rent when possible, if you need a short term advancement for impression purposes. If you simply throw money at a non existent problem, then you are just throwing away money. If you MUST have such gear to accommodate your clients, then and only then should you pull the trigger on something like that. The buy once, cry once mantra comes to mind. Avoid lateral expensive purchases like the plague. You either buy up, or buy down ( to collect a different market ). A parallel purchase doesn't get you anywhere.

For example. In my area the going rate for a wireless mic rental is $75 per channel. It doesn't matter if you ask for a Sennheiser EW300 or a Shure UHF-R unit, same price, totally different levels of quality. Same goes for speakers. A powered Mackie will rent for roughly the same price as a powered speaker of much better quality ( around $50-$75 ) even though the price difference between them to purchase is nearly double. Call another local company in your area and see what it costs to rent their best single 18" sub. Now look up what it costs to buy that sub. You can't charge more for a sub that isn't any better just because it costs more. You may be shocked to find that even a speaker that cost 1.5X as much as your PRX only costs $25 more dollars to rent........ The more expensive the gear, the lower the profit margin.
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Trevor Jalla

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Re: Replacing 4x PRX718XLF with 2x RCF SUB 8004?
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2016, 08:32:02 am »

Luke,

Thank you for that measured and very level-headed response. Given me a bit to think about there. The 8004 seems to be well-regarded by some others here at PSW, and even though its only 2db louder, it's only -3db down at 30hz. Pretty impressive, no?

Playing my own devils advocate however, do live bands need that extra 5hz extension compared to what the PRX puts out? Probably not.

Going with two subs in the short term negates being able to dry hire a pair plus use a pair for my own smaller shows. That does contribute to my ROI. However, if I'm honest, the PRX do at time feel like they come up a bit short. They always sound good - as mentioned clear and even down below 40hz. But there are also times I wish they were punchier, say outdoors 300/400 people. Dancefloor plus tables surrounding. I'm usually at limit light flickering point here - but perhaps I need to figure different mix approaches.

Still not writing off the 8004 - considering its EOFY soon, I maybe able to get one 8004 for not much more than the 2nd hand price of the PRX pair.

Other thoughts and sub recommendations more than welcome.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 08:35:23 am by Trevor Jalla »
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Rob Spence

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Re: Replacing 4x PRX718XLF with 2x RCF SUB 8004?
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2016, 08:52:24 am »

Luke,

Thank you for that measured and very level-headed response. Given me a bit to think about there. The 8004 seems to be well-regarded by some others here at PSW, and even though its only 2db louder, it's only -3db down at 30hz. Pretty impressive, no?

Playing my own devils advocate however, do live bands need that extra 5hz extension compared to what the PRX puts out? Probably not.

Going with two subs in the short term negates being able to dry hire a pair plus use a pair for my own smaller shows. That does contribute to my ROI. However, if I'm honest, the PRX do at time feel like they come up a bit short. They always sound good - as mentioned clear and even down below 40hz. But there are also times I wish they were punchier, say outdoors 300/400 people. Dancefloor plus tables surrounding. I'm usually at limit light flickering point here - but perhaps I need to figure different mix approaches.

Still not writing off the 8004 - considering its EOFY soon, I maybe able to get one 8004 for not much more than the 2nd hand price of the PRX pair.

Other thoughts and sub recommendations more than welcome.

One pair of single 18 subs is not enough for outdoors.
A rule of thumb is an outside gig takes 4 times the rig to get the same performance as indoors.
So, of course you are running out of subs outside.

If outside is only occasionally, then rent a few more or bigger ones.

Don't trade sideways. You are suffering from GAS (gear acquisition syndrome ) with money in your pocket.

If the PRX do ok and sometimes you just need more, buy a used second pair.

As said earlier, there is no conventional single 18 that replaces two 18s.
Want more, then make a step up. Something like a Danley TH118 will more than replace your two PRX subs.



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Dealer for: AKG, Allen & Heath, Ashley, Astatic, Audix, Blue Microphones, CAD, Chauvet, Community, Countryman, Crown, DBX, Electro-Voice, FBT, Furman, Heil, Horizon, Intellistage, JBL, Lab Gruppen, Mid Atlantic, On Stage Stands, Pelican, Peterson Tuners, Presonus, ProCo, QSC, Radial, RCF, Sennheiser, Shure, SKB, Soundcraft, TC Electronics, Telex, Whirlwind and others

Courtney Williams

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Re: Replacing 4x PRX718XLF with 2x RCF SUB 8004?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2016, 09:38:02 am »

One pair of single 18 subs is not enough for outdoors.
A rule of thumb is an outside gig takes 4 times the rig to get the same performance as indoors.
So, of course you are running out of subs outside.

If outside is only occasionally, then rent a few more or bigger ones.

Don't trade sideways. You are suffering from GAS (gear acquisition syndrome ) with money in your pocket.

If the PRX do ok and sometimes you just need more, buy a used second pair.

As said earlier, there is no conventional single 18 that replaces two 18s.
Want more, then make a step up. Something like a Danley TH118 will more than replace your two PRX subs.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Good day guys, really, you need to take a good look at the Turbosound IQ18B. I have used all the other single 18s and none comes close to the IQ18B. More over, you can get a pair of IQ18B 3000 watts amp active for the price of one QSC single 18. if anyone have any input on this please comment, i own 12 IQ18bs using M32 and 8 KV2 Audio tops 10"
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Rob Spence

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Re: Replacing 4x PRX718XLF with 2x RCF SUB 8004?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2016, 09:57:40 am »

Good day guys, really, you need to take a good look at the Turbosound IQ18B. I have used all the other single 18s and none comes close to the IQ18B. More over, you can get a pair of IQ18B 3000 watts amp active for the price of one QSC single 18. if anyone have any input on this please comment, i own 12 IQ18bs using M32 and 8 KV2 Audio tops 10"

Really?

"Music group watts" don't translate into SPL.

The published specs are nothing special.

IQ18B   peak SPL 130 w/3000 watts
KW181 peak SPL 135 w/1000 watts

IQ18B response   50 Hz 130 Hz 3 dB
                             40 Hz 130 Hz -10 dB
KW181 response  40 - 112 Hz -6 dB
                              37 - 129 Hz -10 dB

Again, this is, at best, a lateral move. He won't make money making the change.

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rob at lynxaudioservices dot com

Dealer for: AKG, Allen & Heath, Ashley, Astatic, Audix, Blue Microphones, CAD, Chauvet, Community, Countryman, Crown, DBX, Electro-Voice, FBT, Furman, Heil, Horizon, Intellistage, JBL, Lab Gruppen, Mid Atlantic, On Stage Stands, Pelican, Peterson Tuners, Presonus, ProCo, QSC, Radial, RCF, Sennheiser, Shure, SKB, Soundcraft, TC Electronics, Telex, Whirlwind and others

Courtney Williams

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Re: Replacing 4x PRX718XLF with 2x RCF SUB 8004?
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2016, 10:30:16 am »

Really?

"Music group watts" don't translate into SPL.

The published specs are nothing special.

IQ18B   peak SPL 130 w/3000 watts
KW181 peak SPL 135 w/1000 watts

IQ18B response   50 Hz 130 Hz 3 dB
                             40 Hz 130 Hz -10 dB
KW181 response  40 - 112 Hz -6 dB
                              37 - 129 Hz -10 dB

Again, this is, at best, a lateral move. He won't make money making the change.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Good morning Rob, so my ears and  my pocket book are deceiving me? i can only speak from experience and what i hear, i would not have invested in that much iq if it didnt do the job. I get it Rob people hate the Music Group, i dont work for them in any way, lots of people think if its not expensive its not good, i really think music gear dont need to be over priced.
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Chuck Simon

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Re: Replacing 4x PRX718XLF with 2x RCF SUB 8004?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2016, 11:00:07 am »

Good day guys, really, you need to take a good look at the Turbosound IQ18B. I have used all the other single 18s and none comes close to the IQ18B. More over, you can get a pair of IQ18B 3000 watts amp active for the price of one QSC single 18. if anyone have any input on this please comment, i own 12 IQ18bs using M32 and 8 KV2 Audio tops 10"

You have used "all the other single 18s"?  That's pretty amazing!  The Music Group must be very conservative with their advertised specs(not bloody likely) if a IQ18b can outperform one XLF let alone replace two of them!

To the OP, I agree with Rob, keep the JBL's.  There is no single 18 powered cab that I know of that is going to out perform two of them.  If there is such a creature it is going to be $$$$$$!
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 11:04:57 am by Chuck Simon »
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Courtney Williams

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Re: Replacing 4x PRX718XLF with 2x RCF SUB 8004?
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2016, 11:19:37 am »

Good morning Rob, so my ears and  my pocket book are deceiving me? i can only speak from experience and what i hear, i would not have invested in that much iq if it didnt do the job. I get it Rob people hate the Music Group, i dont work for them in any way, lots of people think if its not expensive its not good, i really think music gear dont need to be over priced.
Good morning Trevor, Rob is a really good guy, he means well, everyone has am opinion on audio gear and there are others that read and quote specs, i love specs, but your ears will decide what good for your application. Danley is very good, i if i win the lottery thats what i will buy, but for right now, you can get 6 IQ18B for a pair of RCF 8004 and 6 IQ18B will do the job outdoors than 2 RCF 8004, not to mention the extensive DSP capabilities on this unit. No other single 18" on the market right now at that price point. i'm sure Mr. Rob and anyone else will agree, again, i dont sell, or work for MUSIC GROUP.
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Courtney Williams

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Re: Replacing 4x PRX718XLF with 2x RCF SUB 8004?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2016, 11:30:12 am »

You have used "all the other single 18s"?  That's pretty amazing!  The Music Group must be very conservative with their advertised specs(not bloody likely) if a IQ18b can outperform one XLF let alone replace two of them!

To the OP, I agree with Rob, keep the JBL's.  There is no single 18 powered cab that I know of that is going to out perform two of them.  If there is such a creature it is going to be $$$$$$!
Chuck, you miss read my statement, I DID NOT SAY ONE IQ18B CAN OUT PERFORM 2 SINGLE 18, PLEASE RE-READ MY STATEMENT, price $$$$$$ wise, take a look on the other brands prices and look at Turbo price. MY point was, if your gonna buy a pair of the other brand, why not buy 4 Turbo. Chuck, maybe i will invite you over to DEMO my Turbo, i have gotten word from KINGSTON, JAMAICA, W.I. about these subs.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Replacing 4x PRX718XLF with 2x RCF SUB 8004?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2016, 11:30:12 am »


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