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Author Topic: Line-arrayitis  (Read 30012 times)

David Morison

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Re: Line-arrayitis
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2016, 08:16:16 am »

All of this makes me wanna build a box that looks like an line array outside with regular conponents inside. And make people wonder how my array sounds so well.

I think it's been suggested before that Danley should make up grilles for some of their boxes that make each one look like several vertically stacked sub-components, for precisely this reason ;D
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Joe Pieternella

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Re: Line-arrayitis
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2016, 09:08:30 am »

Having trouble with quotes in Tapatalk...

Anyway, I did look at that DIY 3-way box indeed as a replacement for half the boxes we own. Building it as a system with six of the cubo's All with grill-over-foam at the front so nobody would know what they were.  Wouldn't really know how to make the grill segments without blocking the horn.
This started as a joke, but if I had the time and funds I would try it just for fun.

Imagine this:
Build the box straight front with a full grill but the foam in segments.
Grooves down the side
Fly points
Pole mount for the top over subs days
And an detachable(properely braced off course) "extension" box below it with the same grooves and foam segments.
Making the extension box look like the  constant curvature array boxes should give a convincable J array look.

I think I Just got one off those ideas i will never fullfill.

Edit: Kind of a topic swerve this, but i kinda like where this thread is going.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 09:11:22 am by Joe Pieternella »
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Renard Hurtado

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Re: Line-arrayitis
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2016, 10:17:15 am »

If you wanna fulfill rider requirements ( now a days)........you gotta have a line array !

It is fashion and looks...............line array is like breast implants (most of the time)!

Renard from Curacao
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Rick Powell

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Re: Line-arrayitis
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2016, 07:20:00 pm »

I think it's been suggested before that Danley should make up grilles for some of their boxes that make each one look like several vertically stacked sub-components, for precisely this reason ;D

They've already done it, sorta. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOEonMFBz7s
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Line-arrayitis
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2016, 08:50:57 pm »

What I find "interesting" is the so called "scale-ability" of the line array.

First of all, there is nothing you can do in the horizontal.  The horizontal is fixed.  Putting up another line is going to cause interference in most cases.

I guess the scaleability would "assume" you could use 1 box for a small crowd (as long as evenness of coverage is no big deal due to the narrow vertical control) and 4 boxes for a little bit larger crowd (again giving up vertical coverage for everybody).

And then you could use 8 or 12 boxes for a larger crowd.

The thing is, is it not a matter of more boxes for the louder shows.  The COVERAGE angle requires a certain number of boxes, no matter whether it is light Jazz or metal.

The whole idea that you use more boxes for louder shows is simply wrong.  That is-as long as you care enough to provide equal sound to all the audience members.  If that doesn't matter-then by all means use more cabinets for louder shows.

But for a given dollar figure and truck pack space and weight, you can have a couple of different good point sources (for different sized shows that will provide good even coverage) that you could keep on the truck, and get louder and sound better for less money AND have faster loadins/outs and setup time.

But it would not meet the "line array" requirement.

What I find funny is that most people insist on a line array-cannot tell what supposedly advantage a line array actually has.  But since it is "popular", they must have it or somehow they are not "complete".

And when people start to give you the "advantages", they have NO understanding that the "line array" effect varies with freq, (causing different sound at different seats) they ignore all the "extra free sound" you get off the back side of the array, how when the line gets longer the energy to the sides increases causing more reflections and so forth.

But at least the drawings of how you are "supposed to believe" are pretty.  Reality is different.

I guess the long lines help them feel more "manly"----

I personally can't wait for sound quality to matter again :)

Yes I am a little bit biased.
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Ivan Beaver
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Joe Pieternella

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Re: Line-arrayitis
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2016, 11:28:30 pm »

I went back tonight, actually im still around here. By now the banners were up and I couldn't exactly see the exact number of boxes. It was wider than I thought though. The sound was pretty acceptable. And the line array worked at 30-35 meters back where I was. Didn't completely like the mix, but I wasnt alone so couldn't walk the "room" the way I wanted to. Wondering what made this work the way it did.





« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 11:54:07 pm by Joe Pieternella »
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Line-arrayitis
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2016, 02:37:22 am »

What I find "interesting" is the so called "scale-ability" of the line array.

First of all, there is nothing you can do in the horizontal.  The horizontal is fixed.  Putting up another line is going to cause interference in most cases.

I guess the scaleability would "assume" you could use 1 box for a small crowd (as long as evenness of coverage is no big deal due to the narrow vertical control) and 4 boxes for a little bit larger crowd (again giving up vertical coverage for everybody).

And then you could use 8 or 12 boxes for a larger crowd.

The thing is, is it not a matter of more boxes for the louder shows.  The COVERAGE angle requires a certain number of boxes, no matter whether it is light Jazz or metal.

The whole idea that you use more boxes for louder shows is simply wrong.  That is-as long as you care enough to provide equal sound to all the audience members.  If that doesn't matter-then by all means use more cabinets for louder shows.

But for a given dollar figure and truck pack space and weight, you can have a couple of different good point sources (for different sized shows that will provide good even coverage) that you could keep on the truck, and get louder and sound better for less money AND have faster loadins/outs and setup time.

But it would not meet the "line array" requirement.

What I find funny is that most people insist on a line array-cannot tell what supposedly advantage a line array actually has.  But since it is "popular", they must have it or somehow they are not "complete".

And when people start to give you the "advantages", they have NO understanding that the "line array" effect varies with freq, (causing different sound at different seats) they ignore all the "extra free sound" you get off the back side of the array, how when the line gets longer the energy to the sides increases causing more reflections and so forth.

But at least the drawings of how you are "supposed to believe" are pretty.  Reality is different.

I guess the long lines help them feel more "manly"----

I personally can't wait for sound quality to matter again :)

Yes I am a little bit biased.

Ivan,  you know I was thinking the other night when I was driving that your larger cabinets that have multiple drivers in the same range are utilizing the same physics just in a much more controlled manner and sharing a single waveguide. 

What can't be discounted is the ridiculous emotion regarding line arrays.  People get stupid.  I was with a top engineer at the House of Blues here in Cleveland that has one of the worst sounding line array deployments I have ever heard.  The damn thing hangs all the way down to the stage, it's either too loud or not loud enough yet universally it gets praised.  I have asked people why they think it sounds good and they can't articulate it.

I really don't get it.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Line-arrayitis
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2016, 09:14:55 am »

Ivan,  you know I was thinking the other night when I was driving that your larger cabinets that have multiple drivers in the same range are utilizing the same physics just in a much more controlled manner and sharing a single waveguide. 

What can't be discounted is the ridiculous emotion regarding line arrays.  People get stupid.  I was with a top engineer at the House of Blues here in Cleveland that has one of the worst sounding line array deployments I have ever heard.  The damn thing hangs all the way down to the stage, it's either too loud or not loud enough yet universally it gets praised.  I have asked people why they think it sounds good and they can't articulate it.

I really don't get it.
Here is the DIFFERENCE many people don't get.

Let's look at the Jericho series of cabinets.  The drivers are arranged so that the WHOLE cabinet provides a curved wavefront. The drivers ARE NOT simply stacked up.   And they are all on a single horn.

Trust me-A LOT of effort goes into getting the curved wavefront-like a pebble in a pond.

When you measure an ETC/impulse response, you get a single arrival-like a single driver would provide.

When you have a line array, EACH cabinet is producing a curved wavefront.  When you stack these up, you have a bunch of different sources of sound.

This shows up in the ETC/impulse response.  Instead of a point (like the Jerichos) you have a "plateau" of arrivals.

What this sounds like to the ear is a smearing of the sound.  So on things like drums or other percussive instruments (like a piano), you don't get the "whack" that you do with the real instrument.

On picked instruments-especially things like mandolin, banjo, guitar etc, you don't get the sound of the pick on the string.

The only way to get that with a line array cabinet would be to have SPECIFIC cabinets that are located in specific places in the array-which throws away the whole "scale-ability" side of things.

Regarding levels, here is a specific example.  I was out at Toms place this week playing around with a number of different products.  At one time we were using a J3-94,  It is a  48" tall cabinet that is 36" wide and 30" deep. So about the size of just a couple of large format LA cabinets, but uses just 4 amp channels.

We were listening at 300'.  Using wide dynamic "hi-fi" music, A weighted slow, we were averaging over 100dB continuous.  So when you add in dynamic range of around 15dB, the peaks were over 115dB.  The peak reading B&K decided not to work that day :(.  Put this in a line array model and see how many cabinets it takes.

It sounded like a "hi-fi" speaker at that distance (and up close as well-just louder)

Just for grins, we turned the cabinet around the other way, and faced it towards one of our guys houses, that is over a mile away, straight line.  The idea was to see if his wife could hear it.

She said she heard it really clear and it was pretty loud.

When we hit mute, we got a good number of clear reflections WAY out in time.

You can also tell how well a signal is "holding together" by the reflections.

If the reflections are clean, then the signal starting out is "together".  If they are muddy, then the signal is not arriving at the reflection at the same time.

Just for grins I built a model of one of the "accepted on every rider" high output line arrays.  With a mic at 300', 24 boxes was just shy of what we were measuring-using their maximum peak output calculation.

Now when you compare the cost of 24 of these boxes-the size-the hanging requirements, the costs etc, it should become clear that is not a good business decision-EXCEPT for giving the customer what they "think" they want.

I feel this will change in the near future as people start to understand that the line arrays are not what what they are cracked up to be.

But I do get the fact that as a business person you need to give the customer what they want-right or wrong.

But just as 15 years ago it was hard to "sell" a line array, the day is coming that that it will be turning around.

I will admit that line arrays were a big step forward in terms of sound quality vs what was provided before them.  A pile of boxes that interfered with each other.

But now with better understanding and products, there is a better sonic solution as well.

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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Keith Broughton

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Re: Line-arrayitis
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2016, 09:37:00 am »

Quote
I feel this will change in the near future as people start to understand that the line arrays are not what what they are cracked up to be.
One can only hope this is true.
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Tom Danley

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Re: Line-arrayitis
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2016, 10:53:09 am »

Ivan,  you know I was thinking the other night when I was driving that your larger cabinets that have multiple drivers in the same range are utilizing the same physics just in a much more controlled manner and sharing a single waveguide. 

What can't be discounted is the ridiculous emotion regarding line arrays.  People get stupid.  I was with a top engineer at the House of Blues here in Cleveland that has one of the worst sounding line array deployments I have ever heard.  The damn thing hangs all the way down to the stage, it's either too loud or not loud enough yet universally it gets praised.  I have asked people why they think it sounds good and they can't articulate it.

I really don't get it.

Hi Scott
In addition to what Ivan said;
A more subtle factor is the difference between coherent addition, horn loading and destructive interference (sources more than about 1/3 wl apart). 
When you have a line array, above the bass end, the source as are for the most part too far apart to add coherently (and the whole reduced fall off vs distance is because of destructive interference) so if you double the number of boxes, you raise the acoustic output by about 3dB.   
If you take a true point  horn like Ivan mentioned and double the hf, mids etc, you raise the output 6dB, not 3dB.   
As a result, if one had 4 hf drivers like a J he mentioned, it would take about 16 of the same drivers in an array to produce the same spl (more actually because the array losses much more energy to radiation to the sides, rear etc) and it would produce a train of arrivals in time instead of a single event..
Best,
Tom
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Re: Line-arrayitis
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2016, 10:53:09 am »


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