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[Francis Dong]

Hi everyone!

My church is going through a sound system installation in our sanctuary and have currently selected a sound system designer/contractor.  We are looking to achieve clear, intelligible, balanced, and even sound for spoken word as well as live music (choir/band/soloist/future productions).

Existing Condition:

Dimensions - The church has a center "naive" area which is LWH = 150'x44'x40'.  On each side of the naive is an angled zone that is shorter, LWH = 44'x~50'x18' rotated ~45° into the naive direction (view photo if confused). 

Material - Ceiling is 1960 acoustic tile, plaster, structural beams
              Floor in the pew areas are of carpet and marble
              Side walls are combination of marble, wood, stained glass

System:  The sides of the church have in-ceiling speakers dispersed throughout the seating areas.  The naive has (6) flying saucer looking speakers that are directed vertically downwards into the naive seating area.

Proposed Condition (Contractor):

Replace all in-ceiling speakers with JBL 322C in-ceiling speakers. (DSPs will somehow handle all coverage, balance, delay, everything)

************QUESTIONS*************

Have any of you heard live music out of the JBL 300 Control series? Is it good for live music?

I am thinking about doing a center line array that fires down the naive array from 35' elevation~ (as I hate the idea of ceiling down dispersion because I think it just weird listening to things from directly above).  This may or may not create a new first reflection problem among the side naive walls.  I did some preliminary analysis with EASE Focus using a 5 cabinet line array with 90°x8° line array speakers.  Any and all thoughts are appreciated!

[Robert Healey]

You hired someone to design the system - it sounds like they may have completely different goals than you do. 322Cs in the flying saucers would not be appropriate for live music but may be able to produce a semi-functional speech only system. Did you ask them to design a cluster type system? Do they know that live music is your goal?

The cluster isn't a terrible idea if live contemporary music is the main design goal (though jumping directly to a line array is not the best idea since you need a speaker with tight horizontal pattern control due to hard walls and many line arrays are wide horizontally). The ceiling speaker delays are also a good idea if traditional delay speakers under the low ceiling areas are off limits architecturally.

If you go with the center array without ceiling/delay speakers you will be essentially writing off the seats under the low ceiling areas since they will not get HF coverage from the main array. The EASE Focus plots you are showing are mapped with a broadband frequency response - you need to look at the 1kHz-4kHz to determine if the system will be intelligible. It likely won't be as the high frequencies are blocked by the side walls. You are also showing a 8-10dB drop in broadband SPL in the rear low ceiling area which IMO is not acceptable for an installed system. Each seat needs a line of sight to a high frequency driver which is where properly circuited and delayed ceiling speakers could help.

Finally, you also need to check that EASE Focus is mapping with the shadow of the side walls and ceiling and not simply plotting the coverage on the floor area. Full EASE is able to do this, but you have to select the option before you map. I am not familiar with EASE Focus so I am not sure about this functionality.

[Francis Dong]

You hired someone to design the system - it sounds like they may have completely different goals than you do. 322Cs in the flying saucers would not be appropriate for live music but may be able to produce a semi-functional speech only system. Did you ask them to design a cluster type system? Do they know that live music is your goal?

We asked them to design what they think is best.  They decided that an all vertically directed system would be best throughout the church (to minimize visual impact and minimize adding additional early reflections in the room which has a lot of hard surfaces).  I have asked him to provide alternatives to this such as line arrays.  They know that the system is meant for both live music and spoken word but I have been getting the whole attitude that the word takes all priority and music is a much smaller one.  (I am young and I am the sound engineer for the band so I seem to getting treated like a child who just wants a rock concert) I have checked with manufacturers JBL, QSC, Martin Audio and they all say that in-ceiling is not ideal for live music but the contractor has been very pushy on it and stands by the speakers as good for everything (as they do have the frequency response and SPL range for live music's dynamic).

The cluster isn't a terrible idea if live contemporary music is the main design goal (though jumping directly to a line array is not the best idea since you need a speaker with tight horizontal pattern control due to hard walls and many line arrays are wide horizontally). The ceiling speaker delays are also a good idea if traditional delay speakers under the low ceiling areas are off limits architecturally.

For the money that we are spending, I find that our church should be trying to achieve most of the content goals of spoken word, contemporary music, single vocalist, choirs.  I understand that there are limits to resources and that one shoe does not fit all, but at least something that is not strictly for only spoken word.  I believe using a cluster/or array with in-ceilings will be adjusted to match the time with the center fill. 

If you go with the center array without ceiling/delay speakers you will be essentially writing off the seats under the low ceiling areas since they will not get HF coverage from the main array. The EASE Focus plots you are showing are mapped with a broadband frequency response - you need to look at the 1kHz-4kHz to determine if the system will be intelligible. It likely won't be as the high frequencies are blocked by the side walls. You are also showing a 8-10dB drop in broadband SPL in the rear low ceiling area which IMO is not acceptable for an installed system. Each seat needs a line of sight to a high frequency driver which is where properly circuited and delayed ceiling speakers could help.

The JBL 300 control series have a model with HF drivers as well which I will be pointing out to the contractor.  Essentially the center fill is primarily for the center area only.  Off course the model is not completely accurate as some of the bleeds on the side from EASE will really be reflecting off the naive walls.

Finally, you also need to check that EASE Focus is mapping with the shadow of the side walls and ceiling and not simply plotting the coverage on the floor area. Full EASE is able to do this, but you have to select the option before you map. I am not familiar with EASE Focus so I am not sure about this functionality.

I will re-run the analysis with your suggestions and see if I can get something that looks more appropriate.  This is my first time with the software and I was simply trying to balance the decibel level throughout the seating area.  Thank you for your detailed response.

[Chrysander 'C.R.' Young]

My $0.02:

1. Get a second opinion and design from another reputable source.
2. A line array of any kind would be far from my first choice in this room given your goals.
3. Architects who design sonic nightmares like this need to be locked in a room with a few sound guys and installers for a bit of percussive re-education.

Good luck and keep us updated on your progress!

[Francis Dong]

My $0.02:

1. Get a second opinion and design from another reputable source.
2. A line array of any kind would be far from my first choice in this room given your goals.
3. Architects who design sonic nightmares like this need to be locked in a room with a few sound guys and installers for a bit of percussive re-education.

Good luck and keep us updated on your progress!

From the information that you see, what would be your suggestion for a space like this (I know that it is a complicated shape to design for.  I have a meeting with the church council today to "finalize" decisions and would like to hear some good opinions or ideas.  I have been in continuous communication with the current contractor and he is basically telling me that ceiling down is the only way to go.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

I concur with getting two or three proposals.  If it is true the current candidate would only do down-firing speakers I'm wondering if aesthetic considerations are taking precedence over acoustic functionality.

I'm old-fashioned, so I'd say get the voice right for the service and address any complex music reinforcement second...likely with a separate system  It has been well said that you cannot serve two masters.  This may be the case for your install...

[eric lenasbunt]

From the information that you see, what would be your suggestion for a space like this (I know that it is a complicated shape to design for.  I have a meeting with the church council today to "finalize" decisions and would like to hear some good opinions or ideas.  I have been in continuous communication with the current contractor and he is basically telling me that ceiling down is the only way to go.

Point source center speaker hung similarly to that line array. A good point source tucked as tight to the ceiling on each side seating area.

Danley Direct is super easy to use, you could try plotting it with that and a few different models of speakers (dispersion angle varying).

Speaking as someone in a similar but worse room this is a VERY difficult design to nail. Ours has a ton of ceiling speakers like a distributed system and it gets sound everywhere but sounds awful. The installer sold A LOT of cabinets though.

[Ivan Beaver]

I never use broadband when looking at a coverage pattern.

Way to much gets averaged to gather.

It is like measuring with an SPL meter.  Yes the SPL may be even-but the freq response could be VERY different in different locations.

I ALWAYS start my coverage with the 2KHz octave.

Since that is the center of intelligibility, it MUST come first when looking for clarity.

4Khz is my next choice. and then 500Hz.

[Jean-Pierre Coetzee]

Hi everyone!

My church is going through a sound system installation in our sanctuary and have currently selected a sound system designer/contractor.  We are looking to achieve clear, intelligible, balanced, and even sound for spoken word as well as live music (choir/band/soloist/future productions).

Existing Condition:

Dimensions - The church has a center "naive" area which is LWH = 150'x44'x40'.  On each side of the naive is an angled zone that is shorter, LWH = 44'x~50'x18' rotated ~45° into the naive direction (view photo if confused). 

Material - Ceiling is 1960 acoustic tile, plaster, structural beams
              Floor in the pew areas are of carpet and marble
              Side walls are combination of marble, wood, stained glass

System:  The sides of the church have in-ceiling speakers dispersed throughout the seating areas.  The naive has (6) flying saucer looking speakers that are directed vertically downwards into the naive seating area.

Proposed Condition (Contractor):

Replace all in-ceiling speakers with JBL 322C in-ceiling speakers. (DSPs will somehow handle all coverage, balance, delay, everything)

************QUESTIONS*************

Have any of you heard live music out of the JBL 300 Control series? Is it good for live music?

I am thinking about doing a center line array that fires down the naive array from 35' elevation~ (as I hate the idea of ceiling down dispersion because I think it just weird listening to things from directly above).  This may or may not create a new first reflection problem among the side naive walls.  I did some preliminary analysis with EASE Focus using a 5 cabinet line array with 90°x8° line array speakers.  Any and all thoughts are appreciated!

May I ask what is your position in this install, do you know what all the specifications are for the installed system such as how it will look architecturally and such.

I know of no system designer that will propose that solution for full range music unless there is absolutely no alternative, three point source boxes or a more distributed system with point source boxes will be a much better option here.

There is no way that a line array will work in there and any array with only 4 boxes cannot be a line array anyway you are going to excite the room and degrade intelligibility.

There is plenty space to hang point source speakers from a reputable manufacturer in there that will meet all your needs and possibly look very good as well.

I second on that you get a second and third design done by different installers. There seems to be a lot of information left out about what is required with this installation as well so if you can expand more then maybe these guys can help you out a bit more.

[eric lenasbunt]

This is the pesky room I'm in. It has about 32 distributed speakers to cover the room. It's still not ideal, but far better than your proposed solution I believe.

Now when do we get to have a heart to heart with these ridiculous architects???

**note, the speakers way up in the Naive and disconnected and we moved to the under fills instead. WAY better**

[ProSoundWeb Community]