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[Scott Olewiler]

Great tone played at the wrong volume....is still the wrong volume

I have to chime in as well about drums and guitar volumes in general:

I've done numerous shows where a kit was provided and shared by all the acts. Unquestionably the more pro drummers hit lighter and the drums sounded better. So anyone can say whatever they want, but real world experience trumps opinions any day.

In fact, at the show I started the thread about;  the headliner provided the kit and it sounded great the first band, then like shit for the second band because the drummer beat the shit out of it (and no, the mics weren't clipping) and then like a studio recording for the headliner, who had a female drummer with a light touch. In fact the female drummer who had the lightest touch ended up sounding like the hardest hitter because we could push the drums through the system and they were full and punchy because of it.

Not only due heavy hitters ruin the sound, they also screw it up for the other players. I have one band that I play in that rotates between 2 drummers. One guys pounds the shit out of his and they do sound good but the stage mix is so F'd up every show is a disaster for the sound crew as everyone ends up turning up their amps trying to hear themselves over the drums. When the other drummer is playing it is heaven as we can all turn our amps down to about half the volume as the other drummer and the stage mix is beautiful.

I have been playing guitar for money since I was 15 (51 now) and I simply will not play with other guitar players who insist they have too be loud. Most of the bands I've been in I've been the only guitarist, but I've also played with and have done sound for lots of guitar players over the years who have rolled in a half stack and have not been loud and still had good tone. Maybe it's the head they were using? IDK, I'm a huge fan of the Marshall sound but I've never had a desire to drag that cumbersome of an amp around so I'm not that familiar with using them. But obviously it's possible to use a half stack and not be too loud.

My experience is that it's not the gear, but the bar band attitude and the hard rock music genre that produce these ridiculous volume junkies.  I have not had volume issues with every rock guitarist I've dealt with, but every guitarist who I've had volume issues with was playing harder rock and had a "local rock star" attitude. 

Fortunately most of those clowns can't afford to pay for sound. Unfortunately; they show up as opening acts for the bands that can and quite frankly I'm tired of them making me look bad by ruining the house mix.

BTW, no one ever did answer my question about whether the amp shields are effective? Should I invest or just stop taking these gigs?

[Bob Leonard]

Amp shields are very effective if used properly.

[Stephen Kirby]

There's a guy around here (Daniel Castro) who brings two Super Reverbs to most gigs regardless of the size of the club.  He not only has plexi shields in front of his amps, but he has plywood shields he puts behind them.  I've played through his rig and it both sounds and feels really nice on stage.  I've also played drums when others were playing through his rig and it isn't killing anyone else on stage.  Seems like a lot of effort to go to in order to get a tone, but it works for him and it does sound good and is easy to play on a shallow stage where you can't get 15' out in front of the amps.  If the house system is good and run by someone who knows what they are doing, you get a good sound all over the room.  So it can be done.  I imagine that without the shields it would be murderous, but they do the trick.  And he sounds great in just about any venue.

[John Fruits]

I suppose providing one of these wouldn't be practical:
http://www.whisperroom.com/sound-booth-models#.VxYo_kexX9I

[Bob Leonard]

There's a guy around here (Daniel Castro) who brings two Super Reverbs to most gigs regardless of the size of the club.  He not only has plexi shields in front of his amps, but he has plywood shields he puts behind them.  I've played through his rig and it both sounds and feels really nice on stage.  I've also played drums when others were playing through his rig and it isn't killing anyone else on stage.  Seems like a lot of effort to go to in order to get a tone, but it works for him and it does sound good and is easy to play on a shallow stage where you can't get 15' out in front of the amps.  If the house system is good and run by someone who knows what they are doing, you get a good sound all over the room.  So it can be done.  I imagine that without the shields it would be murderous, but they do the trick.  And he sounds great in just about any venue.

Steve,
For general purpose use when needed I use a single piece of 1/8" Lexan in front of any of my amps including my Super Reverbs, Deluxe Reverbs, and Twin Reverbs. The stand is a slotted piece of 3/4" pine. Total cost was about $10. This is something anyone who cares, or who wants to pull their head out of their ass can do. If not they can use the wrong sized amp, no shields, turn up loud and go for it. Just don't complain to me when the crowd runs up and tells me the guitar is too loud or that the band sucks. I don't have an anti-suck knob on any of my hardware. If I did have one though it would probably be right beside the "dumb ass" and the "he needs a punch in the head" knobs.

[Hyam Sosnow]

I suppose providing one of these wouldn't be practical:
http://www.whisperroom.com/sound-booth-models#.VxYo_kexX9I

These reminded me of something that relates to this discussion: In 1970 I saw Deep Purple play at the Hollywood Bowl along with the LA Phil. DP played 2 songs by themselves (Wring That Neck and Child In Time) for which Blackmore played through a Marshall half-stack. Then the Phil came on stage and they all performed the Concerto for Group and Orchestra (the only time DP ever played it besides when it was recorded). For the Concerto the roadies rolled the half-stack off-stage and replaced it with a box on wheels (about 2' tall by 3' wide) that was completely covered on all surfaces in thick foam. The foam had a 5" diameter hole into which a crew member placed an end-address microphone. Blackmore plugged in and the Concerto sounded great, with an excellent balance between the group and the orchestra. I don't know what amp was inside of the foam, but I'm guessing that it was a Marshall model 1962 combo amp. (The group—along with their amps—was set up downstage of the orchestra.)

FYI, this performance was a substitution. The concert was originally to have been the LA Phil along with The Nice, who were to have performed Emerson's "Brandberger", but that spring Emerson broke up The Nice to form ELP so DP subbed for them. Like the T-shirt says: "I may be old, but I got to see all the cool bands".

[Tom Roche]

Electronic drums hardly make a sound until you turn the amp up and will sound great no matter how hard you hit. Maybe those small clubs should supply an electric drum kit and a couple of low watt digital guitar amps. That would the problems.

Bars/small clubs providing e-drums and small guitar amps to counter musician inability to play at appropriate levels reminds me of churches resorting to shields/enclosures for drummers who play too loud.  It's a Band-Aid that doesn't address the actual problem.

[Tom Roche]

These reminded me of something that relates to this discussion: In 1970 I saw Deep Purple play at the Hollywood Bowl along with the LA Phil. DP played 2 songs by themselves (Wring That Neck and Child In Time) for which Blackmore played through a Marshall half-stack. Then the Phil came on stage and they all performed the Concerto for Group and Orchestra (the only time DP ever played it besides when it was recorded). For the Concerto the roadies rolled the half-stack off-stage and replaced it with a box on wheels (about 2' tall by 3' wide) that was completely covered on all surfaces in thick foam. The foam had a 5" diameter hole into which a crew member placed an end-address microphone. Blackmore plugged in and the Concerto sounded great, with an excellent balance between the group and the orchestra. I don't know what amp was inside of the foam, but I'm guessing that it was a Marshall model 1962 combo amp. (The group—along with their amps—was set up downstage of the orchestra.)

FYI, this performance was a substitution. The concert was originally to have been the LA Phil along with The Nice, who were to have performed Emerson's "Brandberger", but that spring Emerson broke up The Nice to form ELP so DP subbed for them. Like the T-shirt says: "I may be old, but I got to see all the cool bands".

I would love to have been at that concert.  I saw DP was during their Mk 2 reunion tour in 1984 at the Merriweather Post Pavilion in Columbia, MD.  One of the best concerts to this day.

[Bob Leonard]

Bars/small clubs providing e-drums and small guitar amps to counter musician inability to play at appropriate levels reminds me of churches resorting to shields/enclosures for drummers who play too loud.  It's a Band-Aid that doesn't address the actual problem.

I agree Tom. How did it ever get from bands (garage bands) playing in the average sized club with small PA's and a backline that didn't need to be mic'd, to that same sized club and a band that needs a half stack, 100 watt amplifiers, heavy monkey fisted drummers, distorted over the top vocals, guitar players that can't finger a full chord.

I know where that came from. It evolved from musicians that used what they could afford with a backline that filled the room, and just the room, and a vocalist singing through a PA that supported him or her alone. Then that band would work hard to find a proper stage mix that made them sound great and feel proud of their product, which was a product appreciated by the crowd in the club.

Today there's no concept of what an on stage mix should be in smaller clubs because the wannabe musicians of todays breed feel that as long as they have IEMs who gives a shit anyway. No dynamics, touch, sense of timing, sense of tone, or any idea at all of what a true on stage mix is supposed to be.

Why oh why does anything other than the vocals need to be mic'd in a 30x50 foot room??

[Bob Leonard]

You are welcome to come over to my place and see for yourself. I was on the fone to a guitar player friend earlier. He has been playing gigs since the 70's and recording since the early 80's and will tell you the same thing I said about how some tube amps need to be cranked. It is what it is and I can prove it anytime.

I don't need to come over to your house. I've seen more than my share of ham fisted drummers in the past 50+ years, but luckily for me I was the guy making the final choices and none of them ever made it past the auditions. Every time I see a ham fisted drummer I'm reminded of a tin wind up monkey and it's drum. One speed, no touch, feel or emotion conveyed through their instrument. Just the same sound at the same volume every time you wind it up.

[ProSoundWeb Community]