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[Jamin Lynch]

I NEVER said turn the amp to 11 even if its too loud. Go back and read my post. If the drums are too loud get one of those clear drum shields. Drummers usually get to where they always hit and kick with the same force. It called being cinsistant and engineers love that. the drum volume doesnt go up and down in the mix. there are some rooms that are not fit for acoustic drums. If thats the case use electronic drums. You can also fill the drums with foam but the sound will be like hitting cardboard.

You can play all the Eddie van Halen licks you want. But if you are too loud for the environment you are playing in then IMO you are not a "good all around " musician. Has nothing to do with talent.

[Ned Ward]

Most 4x12 cabs have completely closed backs.  That, combined with the frequency range of (especially, lead) guitar creates a very directional sound.  If that direction doesn't happen to be pointing at the guitarist's ears, net volume can easily become overbearing.

Installing Beam Blockers over each speaker is one approach toward "widening" the sound.  Proper aiming of the cabinet can be a big help - if the room permits.

One really clever approach to conquering this issue was developed by a guy I met in St Paul.  Dubbed the "Hermit Cab", it had a solid front panel with sound-absorbing material inside.  The front tilted open to let sound out as desired.  A mic could be mounted inside and the cab could run in full isolation mode.  Life would be easier for Sound Engineers if more players had them:

http://hermitcab.com/HermitCab_Catalog.pdf

Dave

Dave - the hermit cabs are interesting iso cabs with the potential to have them open. But, iso cabs have their own odd sound compared to a mic'd cab. At that point (and price point), I'd rather have a Palmer or Torpedo Live and save the space in the van/truck if I needed to play amps that loud. Don't think I'd ever be able to get to a Rush stage with dryers or chicken rotisseries, but once you get into iso cabs, why not go all the way to a load box? Better sound, less weight...


what am I thinking. Most guitar players will feel neutered if they don't have a half stack or full stack behind them... so for those, a pretend cab that's actually an iso cab could be a good idea.

[Jeff Bankston]

It does if you have enough trim height.

I am blessed the chain of music clubs/gastropubs I provide for were designed as music venues and other than the stages being way too small and no acoustic treatment they got it right.  We have 25-30' trim heights.  Makes a  huge difference.

Of course we still have the issue with too loud guitar players and the drums getting into every mic on stage but it's one of the best combo venues I have ever worked.

I have seen a trend in the younger bands to carry a small digital mixer and all run in ear.  They had me a split and take care of their own monitors.  I would say 50% of the bands do this and the quality difference between the bands that don't is even noticed by the dishwasher.



They actually pay the artists and production staff fairly too.

A few minutes after I first started playing drums I put cotton in my ears. That didnt work so I tried unused clean toilet paper. I found that buy making tight balls it cut the volume way down but then I could hear the stereo speakers. I got a set of  full ear cover headphones and have used them ever since. We played a number of gigs where I needed monitor speakers and I decided to ditch them and use headphones instead. I wonder how much sound the goes back into the drum mics from the drum monitors. I have seen some 4 foot high straight drum monitors that those drum mics must be picking up. I wonder how much of that could affect the FOH mix. In ear monitors or headphones are the way to go.

[Tim McCulloch]

This thread demonstrates EXACTLY the prima diva bullshit of players impersonating real artists and musicians that makes it all but impossible to deliver a quality audio product in small venues.

Here's the deal:  The license on the wall of the bar isn't a permit to inflict some "this one goes to 11" asshat's idea of art, it's to put liquor in a glass and make a profit (and pay taxes).  It's not a concert, it's wallpaper music for men to buy drinks and hope to get laid.

That said, why do religious-based performances have to be so damn loud?  Thread detour: I will no long work "WinterJam" because of the SPL (among other things).  /detour

If the band sucks because they're so loud the bartenders and wait staff cannot take food and drink orders the band is not doing the bar any favors and should not expect to be asked back.  If they are, and bar management still complains, it's on them and not the band.  Some managers just like to bitch...

[Jamin Lynch]

This thread demonstrates EXACTLY the prima diva bullshit of players impersonating real artists and musicians that makes it all but impossible to deliver a quality audio product in small venues.

Here's the deal:  The license on the wall of the bar isn't a permit to inflict some "this one goes to 11" asshat's idea of art, it's to put liquor in a glass and make a profit (and pay taxes).  It's not a concert, it's wallpaper music for men to buy drinks and hope to get laid.

That said, why do religious-based performances have to be so damn loud?  Thread detour: I will no long work "WinterJam" because of the SPL (among other things).  /detour

If the band sucks because they're so loud the bartenders and wait staff cannot take food and drink orders the band is not doing the bar any favors and should not expect to be asked back.  If they are, and bar management still complains, it's on them and not the band.  Some managers just like to bitch...

Amen brother

Nobody's got dynamics any more.

[Art Welter]

Does anyone do this succesfully?  Or do the players complain about not being able to hear their tone? 

Usually I get "I can turn down if you can put it back through the monitor"  but then they really don't turn down enough to help the overall mix, or thye just turn it back up again. Shelds look like thye would be abetter solution but, do they cause more problesm?

A shield can be an improvement, but the short reflections are not "true" to the sound of the amp/speaker combination.

Guitar players using tube amps that have to be "dimed" for their sound should invest in a variable power soak (load resistor).
Most don't realize that to sound half as loud requires a ten dB reduction, their 100 watt amp needs to be cut to 10 watts.

They also don't realize that using a single 12" rather than a 4x12" would reduce level by six dB, and allow the speaker distortion that is part of the "dimed" sound too.

As far as humidity, it lessens HF air attenuation compared to dry air.

Using this calculator:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-air.htm
At 100 feet (in addition to the 6 dB inverse distance losses) we see losses at 12.5kHz are 4.9dB dB at a temperature of 80F and 60% relative humidity, at 20% RH the loss increases to 11.4 dB, you would need over four times the VHF power to compensate for the difference.

Will be moving to Florida from New Mexico in a few months, expect that things will sound a lot brighter again...

Art

[Jamin Lynch]

A few minutes after I first started playing drums I put cotton in my ears. That didnt work so I tried unused clean toilet paper. I found that buy making tight balls it cut the volume way down but then I could hear the stereo speakers. I got a set of  full ear cover headphones and have used them ever since. We played a number of gigs where I needed monitor speakers and I decided to ditch them and use headphones instead. I wonder how much sound the goes back into the drum mics from the drum monitors. I have seen some 4 foot high straight drum monitors that those drum mics must be picking up. I wonder how much of that could affect the FOH mix. In ear monitors or headphones are the way to go.

Should have tried used and dirty. I'm told it works better 

[Tom Roche]

You can play all the Eddie van Halen licks you want. But if you are too loud for the environment you are playing in then IMO you are not a "good all around " musician. Has nothing to do with talent.

Jamin, I think your point has fallen on a deaf ear.     

Jeff B., yes, a drummer can get a different sound playing rim-shots on the snare or by bashing cymbals, but if you can't adjust to the environment and to the level of the other band members, you have much to learn as a musician.

No pro drummer I know plays obnoxiously loud because their drums are loud or because it's the only way to get their tone.  Actually, none of the pros I know play obnoxiously loud.  It's only amateurs.  Some pros can and do play loud, but it's a developed technique and not due to the drum material or the heads.

A well-known drum maker/manufacture I know often says there are no loud drums, only loud drummers.  While technically speaking some drums may produce a slightly louder tone, his point is still valid.  Being a good musician means having the ability to play appropriately to the venue and the level of the other players.  Great tone can be had whether playing softly or loud.

[Hyam Sosnow]

Drums and cymbals have to be hit with a certain force to sound good.

This is true for heavy (thick) cymbals, in which case to play quietly you need the following:

1. Thinner cymbals
2. The proper playing technique so that you don't break #1. (Glancing blows that draw the tone out of the instrument.)

For drums this is absolutely 100% FALSE. Give me your Tama Superstar drums, allow me to select the drumheads, allow me to properly tune your drums and your drumset will be magically transformed into an instrument that will sound wonderful at low volumes, but only when a drummer who can play with the proper technique is playing them. From your statements throughout this thread I'm not convinced that you possess this type of technique.

Some drums are very loud due to the type and thickness of the wood. My 1980's all birch thick shell Tama Superstar drums are very loud and I dont hit hard.

Shell thickness is much less important to this discussion than 1) playing technique, 2) drumhead choice, and 3) drumhead tuning. I own a set of 1990 vintage Ludwigs with 3/8"-thick shells, yet when I mount thin Remo Fiberskyn 3 heads on them (tops and bottoms), tune them properly and play them properly, they absolutely sing at low volumes.

When I was a kid I owned a 1930s-vintage drumset that still had its original calfskin heads. Natural skin heads are hygroscopic, so their tuning will change dramatically with humidity and temperature changes. Keeping that drumset tuned properly gave me a tremendous amount of knowledge about tuning drums, not to mention lots of opportunity to put that knowledge into practice.

As for "A big complaint from recording engineers and sound men is the drummer isn't hitting hard enough for the drums and cymbals to sound good ...", the opposite is actually true. If the drummer hits hard and buries the sticks into the heads when they hit them, they're killing the drums' tone and making everything sound dead. Proper technique dictates that you use your wrists and fingers to momentarily snap the sticks against the heads and draw the sound out of the instrument. Doing this will get you more tone and volume without your having to overplay the instrument. The same goes for the bass drum beater—if you leave it against the head after the stroke your bass drum will sound like a cardboard box filled with Kleenex instead of a musical instrument. Watch videos of John Bonham some time—you'll see that he drew the sound out of his drums using his wrists, almost never lifting his arms very high. This technique, combined with clever drum choice and tuning (big drums tuned high, with the resonant heads even higher than the batters) allowed him to get great response from his drums at medium to softer volumes, along with tremendous power when he wanted it.

[John L Nobile]

This thread demonstrates EXACTLY the prima diva bullshit of players impersonating real artists and musicians that makes it all but impossible to deliver a quality audio product in small venues.

Here's the deal:  The license on the wall of the bar isn't a permit to inflict some "this one goes to 11" asshat's idea of art, it's to put liquor in a glass and make a profit (and pay taxes).  It's not a concert, it's wallpaper music for men to buy drinks and hope to get laid.

That said, why do religious-based performances have to be so damn loud?  Thread detour: I will no long work "WinterJam" because of the SPL (among other things).  /detour

If the band sucks because they're so loud the bartenders and wait staff cannot take food and drink orders the band is not doing the bar any favors and should not expect to be asked back.  If they are, and bar management still complains, it's on them and not the band.  Some managers just like to bitch...

Good points.
I played bars for years in my youth and found out early that we were only there to keep people in the bar to drink. Owners didn't care if you were great musicians. All you had to do was play popular songs.
And you could play as loud as you wanted UNTIL the bartender and servers couldn't hear the orders. If you didn't turn down then you never got called back.

Honestly, if you want to play flat out, ear bleeding volume,  make a hit record and sell out concerts. That's when you can make your own rules.

Too many musicians think they're special. Some get it and are great to work with. Hope I see more of them in my new position. The rest will remind me that bottom line, this is a job.

[ProSoundWeb Community]