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[Ned Ward]

Some guitar amps have to be cranked up to produce the tone the guitar players want. My 3 Marshall JCM800 2205 amp have to be cranked to sound good , it's the way many of those tube amps were made. A friend has an old Ampeg tube guitar amp that has a chink-a-chink-a sound when you turn it way up.I would use a full stack and not connect the bottom speakers or put the cabinet on something to get it up in the air above the audience heads. Another idea would be to turn the cabinets around and have the speakers facing the stage and mic the guitar cabinets through the pa.

Jeff - with a JCM800, the early to mid 80's ones only sound good when cranked, so I agree with you there, and the JCM800 is a really loud 50 watt amp. However, if it's too loud for the venue, it may not be the right tool for the job. Yes, you could point the cabinets backwards, but at that point, maybe a different amp or a pedal in front is in order. Curious - what years are yours?


I'm sure my non-master volume blackface Fender Showman that Bob worked on would sound amazing dimed. I just haven't found an open field big enough to try....


Top cab connected and bottom cab not connected is also what Pete Townshend used to do with The Who. Of course, a 100 watt Hiwatt into those Fane speakers would have been insanely loud with just 1 cab alone...

Stage volume and getting the best out of very loud tube amps is why so many pro touring acts use a Palmer PGI-03 speaker simulator and don't even have FOH sound. You can dime a JCM800 or a Superlead Marshall, but the onstage sound comes through monitors only. Pete Thorn has a video on his site of recording his amp through a Two Notes Torpedo live, which lets you save the impulse responses of your speaker cab. It's very close; for recording, if you could record the amp it would be slightly better, but at night, for most of us without home studios, or for live use the Two Notes would win out. It is however expensive ($995 MSRP) so not something a lot of people willl have in their arsenal.

[Jamin Lynch]

I was recently helping at a local church. The drummer was pounding the drums. The sound guy looked at me and said, "He's a good drummer." I said not really. If he were a really talented drummer he would realize he is playing too loud for the setting.

[Jeff Bankston]

I stand by my previous statement.

I've played drums since '64. Play the proper volume for the setting you are in.

Double stack Marshall for a small environment....HMMM what could the problem be?

when in a small place you do not connect the bottom cabinet. the botton cabinet is there to get the working cabinet "up off the floor". I dont believe you have ever played drums. If you did you would know that the tone of the drums are diffderent when played soft. A big complaint from recording engineers and sound men is the drummer isnt hitting hard enough for the drums and cymbals to sound good and the singer is not singing loud enough. Here is a real good forum to learn about drum tone.  http://www.drumforum.org/

[Scott Holtzman]

  HF just doesn't make it's way down a long humid room full of sweaty bodies.

It does if you have enough trim height.

I am blessed the chain of music clubs/gastropubs I provide for were designed as music venues and other than the stages being way too small and no acoustic treatment they got it right.  We have 25-30' trim heights.  Makes a  huge difference.

Of course we still have the issue with too loud guitar players and the drums getting into every mic on stage but it's one of the best combo venues I have ever worked.

I have seen a trend in the younger bands to carry a small digital mixer and all run in ear.  They had me a split and take care of their own monitors.  I would say 50% of the bands do this and the quality difference between the bands that don't is even noticed by the dishwasher.



They actually pay the artists and production staff fairly too.

[Jeff Bankston]

I was recently helping at a local church. The drummer was pounding the drums. The sound guy looked at me and said, "He's a good drummer." I said not really. If he were a really talented drummer he would realize he is playing too loud for the setting.

Talent doesnt have a thing to do with how hard you hit the drums. as i said before some drums are LOUDER than others. I have owned Ludwig super classics , Slingerland , Tame Imperialstars and Tama Superstars. My Tama Superstars are the loudest of the bunch and I have been uising 3A sticks and Remo black dots heads on all since the 70's. The room the drums are in also affects how loud they are.

[Jamin Lynch]

when in a small place you do not connect the bottom cabinet. the botton cabinet is there to get the working cabinet "up off the floor". I dont believe you have ever played drums. If you did you would know that the tone of the drums are diffderent when played soft. A big complaint from recording engineers and sound men is the drummer isnt hitting hard enough for the drums and cymbals to sound good and the singer is not singing loud enough. Here is a real good forum to learn about drum tone.  http://www.drumforum.org/

Since I was 9

I never said it didn't change the sound.

So what you're saying is hit the drums at the same intensity no matter what. Even if it's too loud. Turn the amp up to 11 even if it's too loud.

It's all about compromise.

I bring a sound system that is sized for the venue. Smaller rig for smaller venues. Bigger rig for bigger venues.

[Jeff Bankston]

Jeff - with a JCM800, the early to mid 80's ones only sound good when cranked, so I agree with you there, and the JCM800 is a really loud 50 watt amp. However, if it's too loud for the venue, it may not be the right tool for the job. Yes, you could point the cabinets backwards, but at that point, maybe a different amp or a pedal in front is in order. Curious - what years are yours?


I'm sure my non-master volume blackface Fender Showman that Bob worked on would sound amazing dimed. I just haven't found an open field big enough to try....


Top cab connected and bottom cab not connected is also what Pete Townshend used to do with The Who. Of course, a 100 watt Hiwatt into those Fane speakers would have been insanely loud with just 1 cab alone...

Stage volume and getting the best out of very loud tube amps is why so many pro touring acts use a Palmer PGI-03 speaker simulator and don't even have FOH sound. You can dime a JCM800 or a Superlead Marshall, but the onstage sound comes through monitors only. Pete Thorn has a video on his site of recording his amp through a Two Notes Torpedo live, which lets you save the impulse responses of your speaker cab. It's very close; for recording, if you could record the amp it would be slightly better, but at night, for most of us without home studios, or for live use the Two Notes would win out. It is however expensive ($995 MSRP) so not something a lot of people willl have in their arsenal.

I have 3 Marshall JCM800 2205 50 watt full stacks. One head is a 1988 year and the other 2 are 1989 years. 3 B cabinets and 3 A cabinets all have the same Celestion G12T-75 speakers. I did a lot of research on these. The 82-83 years didnt have much gain and channel bleed, mine have lots of gain and no channel bleed. The 84-86 have more gain but still have channel bleed. All my heads are factory stock and I put new ps caps in a few years ago. The amps start to come alive when they are loud. One full stack requires earplugs when on 4. That little gain insert I bought drives the EL34 tubes hard at low volume and I can get the loud tone on it at very low volume. I posted in another reply that a lower power amp is better when thats all you need. A lot of the newer amps can be programed to get the tone at very low volume. Btw I have a chance to get 3 of the JCM800 2210 100way version of my amps but passed. The only place I could see the 2210's used is in a huge huge room. They are LOUD !!!

[Jamin Lynch]

Talent doesnt have a thing to do with how hard you hit the drums. as i said before some drums are LOUDER than others. I have owned Ludwig super classics , Slingerland , Tame Imperialstars and Tama Superstars. My Tama Superstars are the loudest of the bunch and I have been uising 3A sticks and Remo black dots heads on all since the 70's. The room the drums are in also affects how loud they are.

I would suggest not using those where you need to be softer.

These sound great when lightly struck. Good for low volume settings

[Dave Pluke]

My questions was how come it seems like some guitar amps, usually the ones with 4 speakers in them, seem to be very directional? Is this part of the cause of the problem? 

Most 4x12 cabs have completely closed backs.  That, combined with the frequency range of (especially, lead) guitar creates a very directional sound.  If that direction doesn't happen to be pointing at the guitarist's ears, net volume can easily become overbearing.

Installing Beam Blockers over each speaker is one approach toward "widening" the sound.  Proper aiming of the cabinet can be a big help - if the room permits.

One really clever approach to conquering this issue was developed by a guy I met in St Paul.  Dubbed the "Hermit Cab", it had a solid front panel with sound-absorbing material inside.  The front tilted open to let sound out as desired.  A mic could be mounted inside and the cab could run in full isolation mode.  Life would be easier for Sound Engineers if more players had them:

http://hermitcab.com/HermitCab_Catalog.pdf

Dave

[Jeff Bankston]

Since I was 9

I never said it didn't change the sound.

So what you're saying is hit the drums at the same intensity no matter what. Even if it's too loud. Turn the amp up to 11 even if it's too loud.

It's all about compromise.

I bring a sound system that is sized for the venue. Smaller rig for smaller venues. Bigger rig for bigger venues.

I NEVER said turn the amp to 11 even if its too loud. Go back and read my post. If the drums are too loud get one of those clear drum shields. Drummers usually get to where they always hit and kick with the same force. It called being cinsistant and engineers love that. the drum volume doesnt go up and down in the mix. there are some rooms that are not fit for acoustic drums. If thats the case use electronic drums. You can also fill the drums with foam but the sound will be like hitting cardboard.

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