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[Steve Oldridge]

Most bars are just rooms with booze (and really gross restrooms).  For the most part the music presentation sucks (because it's a bar, with all the inherent factors that come with) so unless a band is full of my friends I seldom go out to hear local acts.  I don't drink alcohol, either, so unless I'm meeting someone or there is a social event I'm a part of there is no reason to spend time in a bar.

Booze pays for lots of entertainment expenses, though, and to those patrons who support live music I say "thanks".

yeap.. bars/clubs/meat markets, whatever you want to call them, I no longer do SR there, but PLAY at quite a few of them still.
Some of them simply do not support good sound. Before I quit doing that kind of work, I never worried about it being loud enough at the back.. If they can talk to each other - without screaming in each others ears - I'm fine with that. If they want it louder, they move closer, or complain to mgmt about lack of seating. If mgmt comes to me, they get a choice.. make it nice for folks at the back and drive folks from the dance floor, or move your seating....

[Kevin Maxwell]

I was going to post a question that has been on my mind lately and it relates to this thread and guitars. My questions was how come it seems like some guitar amps, usually the ones with 4 speakers in them, seem to be very directional? Is this part of the cause of the problem? One advantage to putting the guitar amps on the stage is they might be closer to the ears of the guitarist rather than the back of their knees. And maybe they will turn down a little bit then and let you put them in the mix. One can dream. 

The question of where your house speakers are in this situation comes into play. I have been very fortunate it that I am usually working in rooms or outdoors where I can have the mains out enough from the stage (and high enough including sometimes hung) to get some decent gain before feedback and then use front fills to fill in the gap and time align it all to the stage and usually the backline. And in many cases I use delay speakers. Delay speakers when they are hung and away from people can be great. If you need to put them on stands on the floor there are a lot of problems with that.

I always try to be towards the back or at the back of the room. The outdoor summer concert series we do, I am as far as the 125foot snakes will get me and there is still a lot of audience behind me. But I figured if they want to hear it louder they would move up front. I have walked the area and it reaches clearly pretty far back. If the weather looks good I try to strike the tent after sundown. To give those behind me a better view.

But back to guitars I have, even at these outdoor concerts had guitar players that I can’t get to turn down. But we tell them if they aim the guitar cabinet straight at me there won’t be much if any of the guitar in the mains and it will be very uneven in the audience. We once had a band show up and the bass and guitar player powered up and started playing around. We told them to turn down and play just loud enough so that they could hear themselves on stage and they did. After the show their groupies came up to us and said they never sounded so good. The band members came up to us and said they never heard themselves so well on stage. So sometimes you get lucky and they listen.   

[Gordon Brinton]

What about a sound shield in front of the amp?

[Scott Olewiler]

Did you have the main speakers located up high enough?

Well above the crowd but not to the ceiling. Peopl in the back could vocals just fine.I think you're missing the problem statement. Not being able to hear the mains is not the problem for the people in the back, but rather the lack of hearing the sound coming of the amps mixed in.  Butting more guitar in the mains just mean too much guitar up front.

[Scott Olewiler]

5. Fly the PA. Get them boxes up nice and high, let the stage take care of the front.

No money in this gig for flying, but I did have pretty high ceiling for cranking up some smaller angled tops.

So I get the speakers high enough that the people in front don't hear the guitars in the mains and then they also can't hear the vocals in those same mains, so now I need front fills instead of delay speakers. Would probably work, but delays would be easier to implement successfully I think. 

[Scott Olewiler]

What about a sound shield in front of the amp?

I've actually considered sheilds that block the bottom 2 speakers of a half stack. Still let them still hear the two angled up. But Ugh, more gear to put in my already overloaded trailer.

[Art Welter]

So I've come up with 4 options I can work with next time I'm in this situation and I'm wondering what everyone's opinion is on the best method. I have them listed in the order of best to worst per my judgement.

1. Delay speakers for the back third of the room.
2. Have them place the amps on the side of the stage facing in.
3. Get the amps up on the same level as the drum kit. (I don't think this helps enough and potentially puts too much guitar in the vocals and therefore back through the wedges.
4. Move my mix position to the back third of the room and mix for there .

Scott,

1. Good idea if on a separate mix or matrix out so the guitars can be mixed louder in the delays than up front where they are not needed.
2. Helpful, but the guitar players probably won't go for it.
3. Helpful, the 4x12" are very beamy so they will hear the high end that normally blows up their ass for the first time. Again,  the guitar players probably won't go for it, but more of a chance than #2. If it results in "too much" bleed from the vocal mics in their monitors it might be "just right". When actually singing, the singers head blocks the HF guitar wash.
4. Better for you, worse for the average audience member.

Blocking the lower speakers only knocks down 2-3 dB of the top end, and "looks ugly", not worth doing.

Art

[Bill Hornibrook]

Putting a 4/12 cab on a 30" stage will be putting the top 12s right in people's ears, so I wouldn't advise that. How about a halfway approach? Try putting the amp on boxes or something maybe 12-15" high - just enough so the guitar player can hear himself a little better and carry a little further back into the room. It's something I've done in the past.

If his playing position is on the end of the group and you can toe the cab in a little diagonally that would be even better.

Clubs are all about compromises. If this one was packed, you are doing something right just the way you were. So I wouldn't sweat it. That's rather uncommon these days.

[Gordon Brinton]

...1. Good idea if on a separate mix or matrix out so the guitars can be mixed louder in the delays than up front where they are not needed...

I was just thinking the same thing. The delay speakers (or speaker) could be fed from an additional aux (monitor send) and could include more guitar than anything else. If your mixer doesn't support delay capability on an aux channel, then any decent effects processor should work.

[Jelmer de Jong]

Place the amps on the side of the stage, at ear-level, pointed inwards. Although think otherwise, they actually hear with their ears and not their feet.

[ProSoundWeb Community]