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Author Topic: clueless about outboard effects - getting started for a newbie  (Read 9917 times)

Ron Roberts

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Re: clueless about outboard effects - getting started for a newbie
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2016, 07:49:11 pm »

In response to Tim's post, I don't think anyone suffered more "digital fright" than I. It took years for me to convert, and I'm glad that I did. So, if you want outboard effects send me a list. Mine are on a shelf doing nothing and I'm sure I can give you a great deal on anything you need.

And if you really want to get crazy I have a Soundcraft Expression 1 in the box for 1/2 price, $1250 plus shipping.

Definitely a great deal on the Soundcraft Expression board.   However I wanted to be able to offer/advertise 32-channel capability... I have an EWI 32x8 150 ft snake...
HOnestly don't know if I will ever actually use/need 32 channels... but you know how it is... perception is reality.   Someone shopping for sound production services and ask how many channels... 
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Ron Roberts

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Re: clueless about outboard effects - getting started for a newbie
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2016, 09:15:41 pm »

What's even better is that the OP hasn't yet purchased the Midas; he just has 'the opportunity to do so.' He did mention 'rather inexpensive,' so we don't actually know what his budget is. Ron?

-Ray

Bob, Ray, Ned, and all the others providing info...
No, I have not purchased the used Midas yet.  I can get the Midas Verona 32-channel in mint condition in a road case for $1000.  No haven't bought it and I'm waiting.   Right now I'm jammed up finishing my taxes.   Does the Soundcraft Expression have any basic builtin effects like reverb, chorus, delay?

Ideally I do [did] want to offer a 32-channel P.A./sound system... perhaps I can wait a little while I'm in the digital learning curve anyway... I'm really not ready yet to go out there and try to sell my wares.  I want to run this thing at low volume in my house, play my guitar through it, sing through, maybe record a little and get a handle on it before I make anybody any promises....
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Ron Roberts

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Re: clueless about outboard effects - getting started for a newbie
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2016, 09:25:55 pm »

You guys are all too kind. However, if the OP is close enough to the Boston area I would be willing to spend as much time as needed to get him up and running.

It kills me to see shelves full of analog outboard  gear on shelves in my basement, right beside an Expression in a box, sitting beside a half dozen Fender amps ready to move.

I guess it's time to put a list together and get my Ebay account heated up again.

hey Bob - I'm in Fairfield, CT - about 4 hours from Boston.  My brother and his family used to live there near BU.  Been there probably 100 times...
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Jay Barracato

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Re: clueless about outboard effects - getting started for a newbie
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2016, 09:34:53 pm »

Bob, Ray, Ned, and all the others providing info...
No, I have not purchased the used Midas yet.  I can get the Midas Verona 32-channel in mint condition in a road case for $1000.  No haven't bought it and I'm waiting.   Right now I'm jammed up finishing my taxes.   Does the Soundcraft Expression have any basic builtin effects like reverb, chorus, delay?

Ideally I do [did] want to offer a 32-channel P.A./sound system... perhaps I can wait a little while I'm in the digital learning curve anyway... I'm really not ready yet to go out there and try to sell my wares.  I want to run this thing at low volume in my house, play my guitar through it, sing through, maybe record a little and get a handle on it before I make anybody any promises....

The higher channel counts are not as important as they used to be with the newer digital especially with the ability to setup and check a band and then save the scene.

When I am specing a show I would not blink twice if offered a 24 channel soundcraft digital compared to a 32 channel Midas analog.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
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Jay Barracato

Stephen Kirby

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Re: clueless about outboard effects - getting started for a newbie
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2016, 10:18:32 pm »

Was waiting to see how long it took before someone said to not get or dump the Drive Rack PA.  Ron, if you look through here you'll find they are not well regarded.  Maybe okay for the Peavey's as biamped side fills as long as you make sure the power doesn't get bumped.  ;)

If you're that serious about building up a system and using it for hire, even at a basic level, most folks these days will be used to digital boards and the additional capabilities they have.  You can't swing a dead cat around without hitting a Behringer X32.  I have an Allen & Heath GL 24/4 in the garage and I find my Expression 2 much faster to work with.  Instead of tracing up a channel strip to find the send or eq I'm looking for, or worse yet searching a rack for some outboard that's on some particular channel's insert, you hit the select button for the channel and you can just about grab the knob you want blindfolded since they're all nicely spaced out across the top of the board.  Monitor or effects sends are even easier.  You hit the mix or effect button and the same fader layout you were mixing FOH on is now the send.  Joe asks for more keyboards in his wedge?  You hit Joe's monitor mix and push up the fader for the keyboards.  Much faster than finding a tiny knob in the midst of a sea of similarly tiny knobs and accidentally turning up the keyboards in Dave's mix.  And there are more mixes available.  Right now you can only support 2 monitor mixes because of the 2 eqs.  Neither one of which is very wonderful.  Remember, all your sound (from that Midas desk) is going though cheap eq's and a cheap system processor.  It's good to try and have a consistent level of quality at least for your main signal path.

The only thing with an Expression 1 is that if you have more than 14 inputs going, you need to also jump layers.  This isn't that much of an issue.  And you can do clever things like sub-mix the toms or keyboards to a single fader on the main layer.  Two layers gives you the same amount of inputs as you would get with the 32 channel Midas.  Although you won't have as many mic preamps.  There are other ways of dealing with that, although if you are going to constantly use more inputs I'd recommend getting a larger frame.
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Ron Roberts

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Re: clueless about outboard effects - getting started for a newbie
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2016, 10:55:10 pm »

Was waiting to see how long it took before someone said to not get or dump the Drive Rack PA.  Ron, if you look through here you'll find they are not well regarded.  Maybe okay for the Peavey's as biamped side fills as long as you make sure the power doesn't get bumped.  ;)

If you're that serious about building up a system and using it for hire, even at a basic level, most folks these days will be used to digital boards and the additional capabilities they have.  You can't swing a dead cat around without hitting a Behringer X32.  I have an Allen & Heath GL 24/4 in the garage and I find my Expression 2 much faster to work with.  Instead of tracing up a channel strip to find the send or eq I'm looking for, or worse yet searching a rack for some outboard that's on some particular channel's insert, you hit the select button for the channel and you can just about grab the knob you want blindfolded since they're all nicely spaced out across the top of the board.  Monitor or effects sends are even easier.  You hit the mix or effect button and the same fader layout you were mixing FOH on is now the send.  Joe asks for more keyboards in his wedge?  You hit Joe's monitor mix and push up the fader for the keyboards.  Much faster than finding a tiny knob in the midst of a sea of similarly tiny knobs and accidentally turning up the keyboards in Dave's mix.  And there are more mixes available.  Right now you can only support 2 monitor mixes because of the 2 eqs.  Neither one of which is very wonderful.  Remember, all your sound (from that Midas desk) is going though cheap eq's and a cheap system processor.  It's good to try and have a consistent level of quality at least for your main signal path.

The only thing with an Expression 1 is that if you have more than 14 inputs going, you need to also jump layers.  This isn't that much of an issue.  And you can do clever things like sub-mix the toms or keyboards to a single fader on the main layer.  Two layers gives you the same amount of inputs as you would get with the 32 channel Midas.  Although you won't have as many mic preamps.  There are other ways of dealing with that, although if you are going to constantly use more inputs I'd recommend getting a larger frame.

I think I'm gonna hold off and save my pennies for a Yamaha TF5 32-chan.  I know... its a mucho dinero $$$$.... and I know NOTHING about it (but I will find out)... but if it sounds as smooth as it looks... whoa......

So I guess the question "which is better"... when dealing with competing appliances at a similar level is largely a matter of taste.   For example, I'm tempted to ask "which is better?...":
 A&H QU-32
 Soundcraft Expression 3
 Yamaha TF5-32
 PreSonus 34.4.2
 Behringer x32
 
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Ron Roberts

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Re: clueless about outboard effects - getting started for a newbie
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2016, 11:31:09 pm »

The higher channel counts are not as important as they used to be with the newer digital especially with the ability to setup and check a band and then save the scene.

When I am specing a show I would not blink twice if offered a 24 channel soundcraft digital compared to a 32 channel Midas analog.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

I'm beginning to see digital is the future, analog was the past.  I have a couple drum sets I can sell to help with the funding.  I'm too old to do anything halfway at this point.  And if I have some decent equipment, maybe one of my sons might want to do this with me.
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: clueless about outboard effects - getting started for a newbie
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2016, 01:55:10 am »

For someone who's not using it constantly I would recommend an interface with as many dedicated encoders as possible.  The other thing is how much sophisticated routing you plan on doing.  Are you going to just plug it in and treat it like a high powered analog board with built in effects?  Or are you going to do bunches of sub routing and scene manipulation?

Those Yamaha boards seem to be popular with people who use them all the time.  Especially corporate folks.  We have a few of different frame sizes at work in the various presentation areas.  But to me it looks like you have to play with the screen and do odd things you have to remember with the multi-function encoders.  They had one at a nice local venue (Meyer system) but the rotating crew of part time sound people doing off night gigs didn't do well with it and they replaced it with a Midas M32 which given all the Behringer boards out there has a better chance of being used effectively.  The A&H and Soundcraft have full encoder sets.  There's no pushing extra buttons to get to a function like which band the eq is working on.  Which is great for non-digital folks like me.  Although you have to go up market a bit to get scribble strips with them.  Which to me is important if you're using so many inputs that you're jumping layers.  Less so if it all fits on the available faders.  I have done the bit where I wrote two rows of stuff on the tape and have to pay attention to which layer I'm on but that was extreme.  Most times things fit on the 22 faders on my Ex2.  If you got an Ex3 it would be unlikely that you would be jumping layers with a band unless you're micing Terry Bozzio's kit or doing some theatrical thing.

Soundcraft probably has the weakest tablet app.  But I only use it for setting up monitors while on stage and making minor mix tweaks while walking the room.  I have used it on my hi-hat stand while playing drums but that's not really the mixer/app's strong suit.  I mainly manage from the control surface and use the iPad as an assistant.  Other folks who work primarily from the tablet would probably tell you the Behringer/Midas app is the best.  Lot's of opinions from users here.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: clueless about outboard effects - getting started for a newbie
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2016, 03:43:43 am »

Definitely a great deal on the Soundcraft Expression board.   However I wanted to be able to offer/advertise 32-channel capability... I have an EWI 32x8 150 ft snake...
HOnestly don't know if I will ever actually use/need 32 channels... but you know how it is... perception is reality.   Someone shopping for sound production services and ask how many channels...

Interesting turn of the conversation, talking about renting and really trying to make a business plan out of random assortment of gear.

I don't want to take the wind out of your sails but I can't see how you could make money dragging that stuff around.  The gigs that need 32 channels aren't going to accept the analog board and the effects you happen to have.  When you get to that level of channel count you are going to run into band engineers that have specific requests.

I am trying to save you money and pain.  Define your market and research your customers.  The "buy it and they will come" is not a plan.   

If you are going to work the clubs that Expression and a set of JBL SRX  powered cabinets will get you 90% of  the club level gigs. 

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Jeff Bankston

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Re: clueless about outboard effects - getting started for a newbie
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2016, 05:51:03 am »

I use a reverb for outdoors and sometimes indoors. I use a 1/3 octive EQ on the main out indoors. I always use a compressor/limiter on my 2 bass drums becaue I always like to kick harder with hitting a crash cymbal and that protects the woofer. Thats all I use. Each monitor channel has its own 1/3 oct EQ in case of feedback. Each band member has to buy their own monitor speaker,amp, EQ, and cables.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: clueless about outboard effects - getting started for a newbie
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2016, 05:51:03 am »


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